Two longtime Madison nuns who lead an interfaith spirituality center have been banned by Madison Catholic Bishop Robert Morlino from holding workshops or providing spiritual direction or guidance at any Catholic churches in the 11-county diocese.

Sisters Maureen McDonnell and Lynn Lisbeth, both Sinsinawa Dominicans, have diverged too far from Catholic teaching, according to a confidential memo sent Nov. 27 to priests on behalf of Morlino. A copy of the memo was leaked to the State Journal.

Two other women connected to the interfaith center, called Wisdom's Well, also have been banned as part of the same action.

The memo says Morlino has "grave concerns" about the women's teachings, specifically that they "espouse certain views" flowing from such movements as "New Ageism" and "indifferentism." The latter, according to the memo, is "the belief that no one religion or philosophy is superior to another."

The women "may not share an authentic view of the Catholic Church's approach to interreligious dialogue," the memo said.

Brent King, a spokesman for the diocese, said three other potential parish guest speakers, all male, have been banned "in recent years." The women are not prohibited from attending Mass or, if Catholic, from receiving communion, King said. Asked whether they could contribute to parish life in other ways, such as reading Bible passages from the pulpit or chairing a church committee, King said that would be up to individual priests.

The action comes amid a papal crackdown on nuns. Earlier this year, the Vatican accused the most influential group of Catholic sisters in the U.S. of "serious doctrinal issues" for not following Rome's lead on topics such as the male-only priesthood and homosexuality.

Interfaith approach

Wisdom's Well was founded in Madison in 2006. The center has no physical facility but offers workshops and retreats on topics such as nonviolence, contemplative living and Christian meditation.

The center's website says it "serves to support those who desire to grow spiritually, seek inner wisdom, and yearn for a transformative spirituality." Its mission statement says the center is "grounded in the Christian tradition, while embracing the wisdom found in other religious traditions."

Along with the sisters, the third staff member is Beth O'Brien, a married mother of two and a religious layperson affiliated with the Benedictine community. She also is banned, as is Paula Hirschboeck, a philosophy professor at Edgewood College in Madison who helped found Wisdom's Well but is no longer on its staff.

The women declined comment, referring questions to the Dominicans of Sinsinawa Congregation, based in southwestern Wisconsin.

'Valued members'

The order's spokeswoman, Tricia Buxton, released a statement saying McDonnell and Lisbeth are "respected and valued members" of the order, and that both women "have been dedicated to religious life and preaching and teaching Gospel values for nearly 50 years." The Sinsinawa Dominicans "wholeheartedly support our sisters and hold them in prayer as we continue our mission of participating in the building of a holy and just church and society," the statement said.

Buxton said Sinsinawa Dominicans have never before faced a prohibition like this in the diocese. The order has 521 sisters.

Both McDonnell and Lisbeth are well-known in Madison. McDonnell served for 21 years on the campus ministry staff at Edgewood College, her alma mater. Lisbeth regularly leads classes in spirituality at the Madison Senior Center.

At the time the memo went out, McDonnell was co-facilitating a series of weekly classes with 12 students at St. James Catholic Church in Madison titled, "Just Peace Initiative: The Challenge and Promise of Nonviolence for Our Time." The class has been moved, according to an organizer, who did not want the new site published.

Diocese's 'duty'

The memo sent to priests says the four women "are not to be invited or allowed to preach, catechize, lead spiritual or prayer instructions or exercises, or to provide spiritual direction or guidance at churches, oratories or chapels within the Diocese of Madison." No publicity materials from Wisdom's Well are to be allowed inside parishes.

The memo does not give specific examples of things the women may have said that violate church teaching. Rather, the memo references problematic statements on the center's website, including that the sisters embrace "the wisdom found in other religious traditions."

King said it is both the diocese's duty and right to ensure parish speakers transmit true church teaching. "A proposed speaker's association with a group whose philosophy is inconsistent with the Catholic faith disqualifies a proposed speaker," he said.

The prohibition against the sisters came only after the diocese "patiently and prudently" investigated the matter, King said. The memo says the diocese "sought clarification" from the sisters, but "the responses from these individuals proved insufficient and inconclusive to resolve grave concerns."

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(585) comments

cc1038
cc1038

Say it Norwood! Speaking truth to power. Reminds me of one of my favorite Shakespeare quotes:
..."but man, proud man,
Dress'd in a little brief authority,
Most ignorant of what he's most assur'd—"

Richard123
Richard123

Morlino makes me thankful to be a Lutheran! He is a disgrace to Catholics and a stumbling block to long-overdue church reform in the Catholic Church. Thoughtful Catholics, you have our sympathy and we extend you a welcome hand out of your Diocese here in Madison.

didi
didi

@Richard123--Do you realize that some Lutheran denominations will not allow other Lutheran visitors to receive eucharist at their church unless they get permission from the Pastor? It is true!!!

Juan Diego
Juan Diego

Morlino makes me thankful I'm not a Lutheran any longer! He's upholding the teaching of the Church. Most Lutheran and other mainline Protestant denominations long ago ceased to believe in anything worth believing that differs the least bit from people with no Christian belief at all. Your invitation to join your denomination is as inspiring and edifying as being given a chance to join the Book of the Month Club. For Catholics, it's D-Day and we're hitting the beach.

bluffsinview
bluffsinview

Is Willnat Bishop Morlino in disguise? He and his ilk are the reason the church has lost millions of members. Even as a child in a Catholic grade school I knew the nun was wrong when she said if we ate meat on Friday and died before we went to confession we'd go right to hell. Even as a child I thought that her "God" was not my God, and that the rule was ridiculous. Thinking people question, just as these nuns have. Morlino fears intelligent discussion and debate, just as Fascist dictators and other arrogant tyrants do. Just as Walker does when he touts open discussion while only the invited are allowed to attend his "listening sessions", and while under his approval peaceful protestors are cited and arrested for expressing their opinions. The bishop needs to be removed. As does Walker.

You make a very important point.....for the opposing view. You just said the nun told you that if you ate meat on friday or died before confession you'd go to Hell, and neither of those are correct according to Catholic church official teachings. See the nun was telling you something that was wrong and it was bad for the church...it made you question them and feel like they were wrong. If she had stuck to the official church stance this wouldn't have happened. This is exacatly why Molino was correct in stopping these nuns from spreading incorrect teachings on behalf of the church. They can feel anyway they want.....just not while acting on behalf of the church.

willnat
willnat

Your observation is perhaps the most important of the 500 comments on this article! I wish I had said it.

Thanks. I'm no fan of Morlino's and have disagreed with his bullish methods in the past, but on this one I have to agree as it is his responsibility to protect the integrity of the church doctrine

willnat
willnat

No, I am not Bishop Morlino. But you do me an honor by asking the question.

Norwood44
Norwood44

So much obscure blather. This isn't about theology. It's about power and the subjugation of women by a few in the modern American Catholic Church. Why Morlino? Why in Madison and few other dioceses? Because Bob is the Rush Limbaugh of Catholicism. A fat demagogue who revels in belittling others to fluff his own sad image of what a powerful bishop should be in 1945. And because Edgewood College was founded by Catholic women. Be gone Bob. Bishops come and go but these valuable Dominican institutions remain. There's always another bishop. Let's hope the next one isn't nuts.

Syte
Syte

And Norwood 44 is an anonymous, cowardly, intolerant, name-calling bully and bigot who enjoys attacking people viciously with lies.

Calling people fat is the ultimate in immature tactics.
I was taught not to call people fat even before kindergarten.
Did you go to kindergarten, Norwood44?
Wonder how fat you are, Norwood44?
I suppose that hiding under anonymity, you could claim to have 6-pack abs.

WSJ should require real names so that bigoted cowards like Norwood44 could not use this as a hate forum.

Syte Reitz

Hugh Mann
Hugh Mann

"And Norwood 44 is an anonymous, cowardly, intolerant, name-calling bully and bigot who enjoys attacking people viciously with lies."

And of course, you feel compelled to respond with a name calling attack.

Is that the catholic way?

willnat
willnat

"Is that the catholic way?"

By this statement are you asserting that the Catholic way is to not be a cowardly, intolerant, name-calling bully and bigot? Or is there another way of reading it?

He is merely using adjectives...not name calling.

Norwood44
Norwood44

syte.You are right. I should not have called the bishop fat. morlino is obese. his physique is appropriate as it is a metaphor for his leadership. Bloated, intractable and obscene. The powerful who would ruin communities, as he did in Platteville and is attempting to do to Edgewood deserve every criticism. The best way to defeat despots is to belittle them. Make them smaller and human in the eyes of those who would fear him,even as he wants you to think that he can condemn you, which he can't. You prefer to adore him. The shame is on you and your cutlish view of the church and religion. Just because you live on another planet, doesn't mean we have to. BTW, 99% of the people who post on this site do it anonymously. But I will tell you you I am. I am Spartacus.

didi
didi

Norwood to continue to belittle people who don't agree with you makes me wonder if you are a verbal abuser. In the eyes of spousal abusers they actually think that making their spouse smaller by the definition you have proclaimed and do practice here does indeed shame them. hhhmmm got to wonder how much you like and want power and attention?

Richard123
Richard123

You preach, brother! You are absolutely right on! This Bishop is not only an anachronism, he is a malevolent one at that.

didi
didi

how sad you are Norwood to demean another about belittling and how that disgusts you and then in the next breath you are doing just that.

Syte
Syte

So…
Doug Erickson continues to masquerade as a reporter on religion.

You’d think a guy who earns his living reporting on religion would show equal respect to all religions.
But no, Doug Erickson, over and over again, betrays his preference for all dissidents from the Catholic Church.

His previous article on two (different) dissident nuns from Holy Wisdom was extremely favorable toward the dissidents, but Doug relegated comments from the Madison’s Office of the Bishop and from faithful Madison Catholics to a few short last lines entitled “Critics,” at the end of his article. Favoring TWO over the whole Diocese.

Now, his focus is again on two dissident nuns from Sinsinawa. His portrayal again emphasizes their best attributes, not their heresies. Favoring TWO over the whole Diocese and over masses of faithful Catholics and faithful nuns who teach and practice accurate Catholicism.

When are you planning a respectful article on faithful nuns, Doug?
Or a respectful article on the Bishop of Madison's great work?

So glad that Doug is not a reporter on medicine.
He’d probably wax poetic on what a great and nice guy the surgeon who amputated the wrong foot was, and demote the Wisconsin Medical Board to a short last paragraph entitled “critics.”

For ex-Mayor Dave’s input on this topic, see also http://sytereitz.com/2012/12/madisons-citizen-dave-failed-mayor-now-fails-catholicism/

Hugh Mann
Hugh Mann

"You’d think a guy who earns his living reporting on religion would show equal respect to all religions."

And why should we respect a criminal tax exempt enterprise run by old men wearing funny costumes peddling lies, fantasies and delusions agian? Take your time. Think it through.

willnat
willnat

Didn't you atheists say the same thing about Mitt Romney during the campaign? Seems you now just took out the word "Mormon" and substituted "Catholic."

VirginiaJim
VirginiaJim

WWJD ? What Would Jesus Do? Would he cast stones, or welcome people who share love, gentleness, caring and loving? I'm sure He would, as we have a all-loving God. These nuns are NOT preaching God, but generic spirituality for the goodness of human spirit. Yet our traditional and ultra-conservative Catholic Church is threatened by anyone who dares "think outside the box". So Bishop- rather than come down on people who DO good, and preach goodness among mankind, why don't you instead go after the "bad" in this world like pediphile Priests? Shame on you for exercising your vengeful energy on them. We need more people who no only ARE good, but DO good ! May God bless them and strengthen them against tyrants. You go girl !

willnat
willnat

Did you read the article on the diocese's website that gives the reasons for the Bishop's actions in detail?

If not, here's the link:
http://www.madisondiocese.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=31gaeERUy_8%3d&tabid=37&mid=5357

After you've read it and would like to modify your charges and retract your hateful statements, please post a comment.

You are not correct. The church isn't telling people what to think or even telling these nuns what they can believe. they are correctly telling them, that in the official duties of being a nun and while performing these duties for the catholic Church they cannot teach or spread things that are not in line with the churches doctrine. Period. No one is saying that anything they siad isn't nice or good. It just isn't the official catholic church message. they were asked to come into line and refused.

didi
didi

VirginiaJim--WWJD? Jesus would stand up with conviction and call it like it is. You have made Jesus into a passive weak man when in reality he stood his ground and wasn't afraid to go against the grain when it was GOD he was defending along with the people he loved. His love was of action and that is about walking the talk in which he did well. Do you remember him turning the tables over and calling them a bunch of thieves in which they were? "Jesus entered the temple and drove out all those who were buying and selling in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves." Matthew 21:12.

cc1038
cc1038

Sorry Richard, my post was responding to Joseph.

cc1038
cc1038

What a load of pompous, blathering BS Richard. But hey, it's entertaining in its own special way. Krugerrands indeed.

Joseph_B_Starck
Joseph_B_Starck

I am so pleased that my fans, including RichardSRussell, are quite fascinated with, as one astute fan stated, my "exposition of a simultaneity."

More of the same then!:

There was a time when mankind understood Earth to be flat. Then, a transitional period ensued, to which, in time, mankind came to understand Earth to be round. Before the transitional period, as perceived by mankind, Earth's flatness was its effableness. At the same time, Earth's roundness was its ineffableness. That is to say, as perceived by flat-Earthers, its roundness was ineffable, yet its roundness existed, yes? Ergo, I have just illustrated my statement of fact, that ineffable matter exists. Exists eternally. This existence of ineffable matter is pretty much a natural law, RichardSRussell & fans, verily a condition of mankind's existence, whether you like it or not, whether you are on your way to play Dungeons & Dragons, or not. To wit, does mankind know everything? Will mankind ever know everything? Doubly so then!: Ineffable matter exists! (Note: May the "wrong and incoherent" amongst ye comprehend this fact by the wearing of an explorer hat, to get into the proper moody see.) Of course, to present-day mankind -- perhaps even to extraterrestrials -- Earth's effableness is its roundness, and has always been, with the exception, among other characteristics, that the sidewalk square I found a Kruggerand upon was indeed, quite flat, as near as flat as the Kruggerand. (This would be the same Kruggerand that RichardSRussell did not notice as he walked along the sidewalk a moment ahead of me.) You see, my fascinated fans, do not be so disappointed as RichardSRussell is, who rues that I found the coin that he passed by, for there are always, always, many, many coins along your paths taken. You cannot see them though, because they lie ineffable side up, effable side down. To see them, to possibly have and to possibly hold them, you must flip them over, effable side up. And so there you have it. The effable and the ineffable are two sides of the same coin, the coin of discovery.

Ineffable matter exists
God is ineffable matter
God exists


Hugh Mann
Hugh Mann

There was a time when mankind understood Earth to be flat.

There is good evidence that there was a heck of a lot more time when there was no Earth at all, and during this time the universe was populated with aliens and blobs and beings a heck of a lot more advanced than us humans. What is the catholic position on that?

willnat
willnat

I don't believe the Church takes a position on that --- do you and your fellow atheists?

cc1038
cc1038

The logic in the Einstein story (fake or not) becomes faulty and weak the instant you introduce a supernatural being.

Norwood44
Norwood44

There are many paths to grace. Those who argue that they alone know the way, have no grace.

didi
didi

There are many paths to grace indeed but there is only ONE destination and we are given grace for our journey of truth. Mark 4:4-8

Akklia
Akklia

It really interests me how many are so invested in a religion that does not allow family planning and seeks to actively repress half of its members simply because they contain uteruses.
It really interests me how many are so invested in the words of little old white men somewhere...little old white men, largely uninterested in women except for the children they so freely give to the church for apprenticeship...or is it alter boys...are girls even allowed to be prey for the priests, yet?

Ah, morality. Only good for those one preaches to....

willnat
willnat

You argument falls apart because the majority of women in the world-wide Catholic Church support its teaching on this.

It was a bunch of "little old white men" on the Supreme Court that brought us Roe v Wade that legalized abortion. Let's start by rescinding that decision because there is no right to abortion in the Constitution. Also, one-half of the people killed in abortion are girls.

Hugh Mann
Hugh Mann

Let's start by aborting the catholic church. Savita. QED.

willnat
willnat

No, aborting the organization that does the most to help the poorest and neediest on earth would do a tremendous amount of harm.

Long live the Church of Jesus Christ!

didi
didi

Akklia--if you want to speak up, please make sure your facts are right otherwise guesses and made up stories may be considered lies. 1.) Catholic religion DOES allow family planning and it is called rhythm. You many disagree or agree but it still makes your statement a lie. 2.) Catholic church does NOT repress women. I am a lector, give out communion, teach, take eucharist to the inbound, in charge of the funerals, and many other positions of importance. So again another statement where you either misrepresented the truth or llied. 3.) Catholic church does NOT accept some of the behavior that is sinful from human beings in which has occurred with some priests. I repeat SOME becauses there are alot of priests that follow Jesus very well. So again to lump all in one is discrimatory and judgemental making it another lie. Intelligent people understand that in all walks of life we have sinful human beings everywhere, and to specifically point out one area just to be hateful is revengeful. Maybe instead of spreading lies you should watch the world news and see that life is not contained in one area of human sinfulness. 4.) the NUNs should be reprimanded if they are NOT doing their job. You hire someone and that denounce or go against you every step of the way, would still keep them as an employee? Ah yes, morality--some take it on by dictating slanted truths or spinning with evil intentions. Clearly not what goodness represents either christian or atheist or agnostic.

Coinneach
Coinneach

Here again you fall prey to the fallacy that morality can only spring from religion. People are socialized by people and for as long as recorded history there has been some version of the Golden Rule, from which the socially relevant bits of the Ten Commandments are drawn from. Mosaic law does not predate the Golden Rule, it is just one codification of it.

If it were true that only religion can instill morality then why aren't the billion-plus non-believers raping, murdering and pillaging as we speak?

From a purely secular view, which you wouldn't be capable of having, it is best that societies function by some elaboration of the Golden Rule, as interpreted by agreed-upon secular law codes. The best-functioning nations on Earth have some variation of this system. You'll say that our laws are based on Xtian principles, but those principles are based on British Common Law, which was based on earlier Roman and Greek systems, which are in turn based on Babylonian and Egyptian law codes, and so on back into the mists of prehistory.

And yes, I believe the logic in the fake Einstein story to be faulty and weak.

willnat
willnat

I did not say "morality can ONLY spring from religion", but I believe religion to be by far the most important source and support of morality in the World.

"If it were true that only religion can instill morality then why aren't the billion-plus non-believers raping, murdering and pillaging as we speak?"

Many are and many are testing nuclear weapons. Or maybe they are just tired after killing 100 million people in Europe and Asia during the last century!

Coinneach
Coinneach

I will not continue a discussion with a person who repeatedly asserts, with no evidence, that non-believers are especially prone to mass murder. You have not shown any proof that your 100 million deaths were perpetrated by non-believers and, more importantly, that the killings were carried out in the name of their unbelief.

Just as the Crusades were really about overpopulation in France and land grabs in the Levant, the deaths in WWII and Stalin's collectivization were about power politics and resources. The Crusades used religion as an excuse, but that's not what they were about, really. The fact that Stalin's regime was officially atheist has nothing to do with his policies that caused massive casualties.

Anyway, since you will not discuss in good faith without resorting to ad hominem, I will take my leave.

willnat
willnat

You say: "The fact that Stalin's regime was officially atheist has nothing to do with his policies that caused massive casualties"

If you can't see a relationship between Stalin's belief (and that of the other communist leaders) that there was no higher power than himself and.the fact he had millions of innocent people killed, then please do take your leave. I can't discuss this with someone who refuses to face the facts.

One final comment: despite what you may have learned from your revisionist professors in college, the Crusades were about religion.

didi
didi

@Coinneach--if you believe the logic in the fake Einstein story to be faulty and weak--please explain your position on where and why.

Coinneach
Coinneach

Also @willnat

What do you mean that you don't know if the Einstein story is true or not? I provided the link to the debunking article. Are you saying that the article's author is lying?

Just more evidence of your fuzzy illogical thinking. That same article nicely points out that you can't prove your beliefs are true and fables of affirmation like the one didi posted should be viewed for what they are, parables meant to make believers feel better about not being able to answer fundamental questions about their faith, like the existence of evil.

Again, I have fully admitted that I cannot disprove the existence of god(s). If only you and your fellows could admit that you similarly cannot prove that your god exists. Then we could all happily be agnostics together and you could see your religion for the purely human social construct that it is.

willnat
willnat

Why should you care if others are agnostics? It seems to me that (even from a purely secular point of view) it would be better if they were Christians, Jews, or Muslims who followed such commandments as "thou shalt not kill" and "thou shalt not steal." Think about it. Don't you agree?

willnat
willnat

As I said, the real important thing here is the story. It would be interesting if Einstein said it, but it's not critical to an understanding of the point made.

BTW, do you think the story's author is lying or just mistaken?

didi
didi

@Coinneach--we live life as storytellers. Parables are stories to allow people to relate to and understand the meaning of the concept or the truth in which is being taught or spoken. We go to movies that have a ending with morals and values. We learn story problems in math class to understand the answer. In English class, we learn to write sentences of stories to learn our grammar. Life is about storytelling. Jesus used parables that pertained to the people in ways that they could understand. Interesting you talk about how parable are meant to make believers feel better but we as parents do the same with our children. We explain to them truth and we use parable and storytelling to explain the truth. Parables are still truth just as the story of the article I posted. It doesn't matter if Einstein wrote it or not--just matters that it is truth.

You are right you cannot disprove the existence of God because you unfortunately close your eyes MAYBE to the miracles of everyday that you overlook. If you open your eyes and really see every miracle that surrounds you, you would be truly amazed. It is because so many want to see the BIG miracles to believe. It may be true that scientifically you can account for much but if you go back each time you will find sooner or later you cannot explain the mystical body of the universe or creation because there is a question that keeps arising and that then reveals Divine Providence. The first thing one must do is drop the illusion of what you believe God to be because chances are you have boxed God in and therefore your humanity has identified God in human form.

Interesting enough Agnostics do not know whether they believe in God or not but they do continue to believe in goodness and love and practice it as well. Just maybe they continue to behave in this manner because they want to be prepared if God awakens them to the reality of truth and eternal life and then we can all live happily together both here on earth as well as eternity.

Coinneach
Coinneach

@willnat

Women can't be priests. Discrimination, pure and simple. I don't care what your ancient doctrine says about women in the priesthood; the RCC has seen fit to change course on so many things over the centuries, why not change this one?

willnat
willnat

That's not any more discrimination than "men can't be nuns." So what's the point. In a free society, any organization should be able to decide what the roles of its members would be. In turn, members are free to stay or leave the organization.

Whether the RCC has seen fit to allow women to be priests is of concern only to Roman Catholics. Are you one?


willnat
willnat

Here's an interesting news item on Bishop Robert C. Morlino from a few years ago. It shows him receiving the Lifetime Achievement Award from the Congress of Racial Equality (CORE). The bishop is, and always has been, one of the major supporters of racial equality in the US. As the article states, other winners of the award include Elie Weisel, James Baker, UN Secretary General Boutrus Ghali, and Audrey Hepburn.

http://www.madisoncatholicherald.org/2006-12-14/bishop.html

May God bless you Bishop Morlino. We need more citizenslike you!

Coinneach
Coinneach

It's kind of pathetic that Didi would try to pass off that thoroughly debunked chestnut about Einstein. It never happened.
http://www.snopes.com/religion/einstein.asp

Also, I am unsurprised that my earlier post regarding my agnostic atheism got no response. It's not quite as easy to build straw men out of my position. If you took a poll of the billion-plus unbelievers in the world, I think you'd find that a majority think similarly. I would expect that the number of non-theists who actively deny the existence of god to be in the minority.

I don't hate religion, I hate extremism and abhor behavior that is anti-social and breaking the Golden Rule. The only time a religious figure will be in my sights is if he/she fits the above description. I don't claim that Morlino is actively malicious but he is perpetuating the policies of an institution which has chosen to discriminate against women and LGBT persons. It just makes me a little sad that suffering should be visited upon those women for no good reason.

willnat
willnat

"an institution which has chosen to discriminate against women"

And how is the Catholic Church doing this? Because it says that the worship of goddesses is one of the most serious sins?

willnat
willnat

I don't know if the story about Einstein is true or not, but I do know the arguments in the story are pretty darn persuasive.

didi
didi

@Coinneach--"pathetic"-- what kind of word is that meaning. Doesn't matter who said it, the truth is in the article itself. Silly how some choose to overlook the meaning of truth but likes to find nit picking to personally attack because they cannot logically address the issue. Let's read the story again and add any name you want--the meaning is the same and the truth still speaks volumes.

Joseph_B_Starck
Joseph_B_Starck

RichardSRussell errs again. He said: "You evidently don't understand the difference between the formal STRUCTURE of a syllogism and its CONTENT."

Again, from me, no. 2:

The answer my friend is blowin' in the wind
The flag is blowin' in the wind
The answer is the flag

Again, from me, no. 1:

Ineffable matter exists
God is ineffable matter
God exists

To no. 2, RichardSRussell, I do quite understand that, for example, dust blows in the wind. But my context is a Bob Dylan song, not a Kansas song, so my no. 2 explicates, syllogistically, logically, what the song is about. (If you disagree, illustrate with a nearer holiday nosh, fruitcake.)

To no. 1, almond joy's got nuts, mounds don't, yes, I said "a category of thing (Y) called "ineffable matter,"" no, I never said "there's a kind of creature (God = X) that is a KIND of ineffable matter (Y)."

"Creature," RichardSRussell, is a descriptor. A descriptor denotes effableness. Your creature, therefore, is quite not ineffable. Ha. U Fail Logic. U illustration no goodbar.

Here milkdud, here's an apt illustration of my no. 2:

Lets say you walk along a sidewalk.
Lets say I walk along the same sidewalk a moment after you and I discover a Kruggerand.
To you, a moment along the sidewalk ahead of me, the Kruggerand does not exist.
To me though, it exists.
I discovered it, you did not.
You have no idea what I found. To you, it's unkowable, it's ineffable.
It's quite effable to me though, as is the attractive woman I'm splurging the Kruggerand on.
In fact, you have no idea what a good time I'm having with my Kruggerand discovery whilst you play with your Dungeons & Dragons.
The next day though, you read a story in the Wisconsin State Journal about my good time splurge, and you think to yourself, "Had I not been distracted, had I not had my mind on Dungeons & Dragons, I'd have discovered that Kruggerand on the sidewalk a moment ahead of Joe! I'd have had the effable good time!



RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

Fascinating!

A living example of how it's possible to be both wrong and incoherent simultaneously.

willnat
willnat

I've got to remember Richards reply the next time I don't understand someone's argument but still want to put it down.

Tea Parody
Tea Parody

I have ask my minister, Pastor Ben Dover, to read this entire thread. He is my pastor at First Republican Evangelical Denomination of Churchianity. He said that anyone who says that God is not real obviously is either agnostic or atheist and therefore should not be taken seriously. On the other hand, he said that Mr. RichardSRussell is more Christlike than most of the self-proclaimed Christians posting on this thread, since Mr. RichardSRussell actually appears to care about people, which is what Christ did. I guess this brings to mind what Ghandi said "I like your Christ, but I do not like your Christians".

Now back to the important part. The bishop is entirely right here, because he is talking about nuns who, by the way, are women. Everyone in the Tea Parody knows that man created women with God out of his rib, so women should obey the man. If the nuns don't want to obey the bishop then why did they become nuns. They could have stayed regular lesbians and had their own say from the get go.

willnat
willnat

If you put a phrase in quotes, it needs to be the exact words of the person you are quoting.

Just because you call yourself "Parody" does not excuse you from following this rule.

cc1038
cc1038

Come on IowaMike, quit falling back on that "you can't disprove god" BS.

Tell you what, there's a pretty pink unicorn living in the sky above my house. It's devine because my holy pink unicorn book says so. Nobody can see it because it's invisible but I know it's there because my holy book says so.

Now IowaMike, prove that my pretty pink unicorn does not exist.

IowaMike
IowaMike

cc1038,

Now CC there you go...you want me to do your work for you. If there is no God and you are so sure then prove it. See you want me to do what you cannot do....because we both believe as a matter of faith. Makes us kinda like cousins or something. Hate that don't you....you being a faith believer and all.

Hugh Mann
Hugh Mann

Then define to us what 'god' is in terms of math, physics and logic, you know, terms that have actual meaning and can be used to devise proofs and demonstrations. Everything else is just fantasy and sports. Or something like your last sentence, which I can't even parse. It sound to me like you are getting desperate there Mikey.

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

I think it's time to give up on IowaMike, CC. If he hasn't got it figured out after half a dozen attempts to lead him thru it by the hand, he's never gonna get it.

didi
didi

Did God create everything that exists? Does evil exist? Did God create evil?

A University professor at a well known institution of higher learning challenged his students with this question. "Did God create everything that exists?"

A student bravely replied, "Yes he did!"

"God created everything?" The professor asked.

"Yes sir, he certainly did," the student replied.

The professor answered, "If God created everything; then God created evil. And, since evil exists, and according to the principle that our works define who we are, then we can assume God is evil."

The student became quiet and did not respond to the professor's hypothetical definition.. The professor, quite pleased with himself, boasted to the students that he had proven once more that the Christian faith was a myth.

Another student raised his hand and said, "May I ask you a question,

Professor?" "Of course", replied the professor.

The student stood up and asked, "Professor does cold exist?"

"What kind of question is this? Of course it exists. Have you never been cold?"

The other students snickered at the young man's question.

The young man replied, "In fact sir, cold does not exist. According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is in reality the absence of heat. Everybody or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-460 F) is the total absence of heat; and all matter becomes inert and incapable of reaction at that temperature. Cold does not exist. We have created this word to describe how we feel if we have no heat." The student continued, "Professor, does darkness exist?"

The professor responded, "Of course it does."

The student replied, "Once again you are wrong sir, darkness does not exist either. Darkness is in reality the absence of light. Light we can study, but not darkness. In fact, we can use Newton's prism to break white light into many colors and study the various wavelengths of each color. You cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space is? You measure the amount of light present. Isn't this correct? Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present." Finally the young man asked the professor, "Sir, does evil exist?"

Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of course, as I have already said. We see it everyday. It is in the daily examples of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil.

To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist, sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat, or the darkness that comes when there is no light."

The professor sat down.

The young man's name -- Albert Einstein

A true story.

Sardath
Sardath

Willnat writes: "Papal encyclicals are not considered by the Church to be infallible unless it is so stated by the Pope."

Bishop Morlino would disagree with you on that point. When Humanae Vitae (the encyclical against contraception) was promulgated, it was explicitly stated that it was not intended to be an infallible definition. And yet Bishop Morlino has said that not only does the encyclical constitute infallible teaching; it was inspired by the Holy Spirit!

Sardath
Sardath

It should also be noted that the Pope's opinion as to whether or not something is infallible does not make it so. The criteria for infallibility were defined by the First Vatican Council, and only papal statements which meet those criteria are considered infallible, regardless of what the Pope may have thought or intended at the time. There have been instances in which Popes had no idea they were making an "infallible" definition, but the Church later decided they had. There were other instances in which Popes clearly thought they were making an infallible definition, and the Church later decided they hadn't. And in a number of cases, it remains a matter of considerable dispute as to whether a particular statement is infallible or not.

Oddly enough, there is no official list of infallible definitions, and some (allegedly) infallible statements have transitioned into or out of the (very fallible) list depending on the winds of theological opinion over time.

Sardath
Sardath

Willnat writes: "The PBS website page on Beliefs of Muslims says:

"Belief in the Books of God: Muslims believe that God revealed holy books or scriptures to a number of God's messengers. These include the Quran (given to Muhammad), the Torah (given to Moses), the Gospel (given to Jesus), the Psalms (given to David), and the Scrolls (given to Abraham). Muslims believe that these earlier scriptures in their original form were divinely revealed, but that only the Quran remains as it was first revealed to the prophet Muhammad."

Yes, that's exactly right. Now notice that last sentence: "These earlier scriptures IN THEIR ORIGINAL FORM were divinely revealed, but ONLY THE QURAN remains as it was first revealed ..."

According to Muslim belief, the earlier scriptures have all been corrupted by those who received or transmitted them, so that they are no longer trustworthy; only the Quran remains as it was originally given. As a result, in the Muslim view only the Quran is a reliable guide to the nature and character of God, while the Jewish and Christian scriptures are untrustworthy and in fact tell outright lies, especially about God.

Given that, lumping Jews, Christians, and Muslims together as all being worshipers of the same God, with that God clearly being the God revealed in the "Old Testament", requires some fairly sophisticated argumentation. It is not something that one can just blithely assert without further discussion, as you have attempted to do.

willnat
willnat

Here's an important article on this matter on the official Diocese of Madison website. Please read it and decide for yourself if the bishop is a "bully," as some in these comments have declared, or if he is just defending the faith for the benefit of Catholics in his diocese.

Synopsis of Concerns regarding Sr. Maureen McDonnell, O.P., Sr. Lynn Lisbeth, O.P., Paula Hirschboeck, Ph.D.,
and Ms. Beth O’Brien (oblate of Holy Wisdom Monastery) and their Formal Associations
November 27, 2012

http://www.madisondiocese.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=31gaeERUy_8%3d&tabid=37&mid=5357

array1
array1

Tomorrows headline news: Global Warming, Cancer, and Wrinkles cured by faith

willnat
willnat

Well they sure won't be cured by the religion of atheism.

To think about it, global warming, for one, might be cured by faith, because belief in God, and the desire to serve him by helping others, might compel people to spend the efforts necessary to curb global warming.

Thanks for suggesting this to me. I'll need to pass it on to my pastor. It will make a great sermon about how religious faith can directly help our society.

array1
array1

No doubt religion can be the inspiration to do wonderful things and true also there are those of equally high moral standing who are not religious.

Faith itself and numbers of believers however provide no argument for the existence of gods. If it were the case then Christianity must be wrong because most of the world are not Christians. Unless of course you allow for the existance of multiple gods and with some minimum threshold number of believers required in order for a god to pop into existance.

Sardath
Sardath

Willnat writes: "The God of the Old Testament is the same God worshiped by Christians, Jews, and Muslims. Look it up."

Yes, please do. The results may not be what you expect.

First, Muslims claim to worship the God of Abraham. Whether or not that is the same thing as worshiping "the God of the Old Testament" is not entirely obvious, since Muslims also believe that the Old Testament has been falsified by the Jews and therefore cannot be relied upon to accurately describe Abraham's God.

Second, many Jews would not be happy to hear their sacred scriptures described as "the Old Testament", or their deity described as the God of the Old Testament. There is also a respectable strand of Jewish thought which holds that the God worshiped by Christians is not the same God worshiped by Jews, and they would not appreciate being lumped into the same category.

Third, a great many Christians, both past and present, have made a distinction between the "wrathful God of the Old Testament" and the "merciful God of the New Testament". Of course that's heresy, but it's a heresy believed to some degree by a great many of the people you wish to count as worshipers of the Old Testament God.

And then there are the vast numbers of people who are identified as Christians, Jews, or Muslims in government censuses and private population surveys, but who in reality are not Christians, Jews, or Muslims by any reasonable definition of those terms, and in fact may not believe in much of anything at all.

And finally there is the fact that a lot of the people in all three groups lack the maturity, the mental capacity, or the education to have an informed opinion on the subject at all. It's hardly fair to include them in the count, either.

In short, things are much more complicated than you wish us to believe.

willnat
willnat

Don't you think you're making the waters a little muddy? The first books of the Christian Bible that introduce God are basically the same as those adhered to by Jews and Muslims. What they call them, or if there are some minority sects of these religions that do not agree, is besides the point.

Sardath
Sardath

Willnat, you are the one who is constantly muddying the waters; I'm trying to introduce a little clarity.

And no, the first books of the Christian Bible are NOT the same as those adhered to by Muslims. Not even close. Muslims do not use the Christian Bible, or the Hebrew Bible; they use the Quran, which is a different book entirely.

willnat
willnat


The PBS website page on Beliefs of Muslims says:

"Belief in the Books of God: Muslims believe that God revealed holy books or scriptures to a number of God's messengers. These include the Quran (given to Muhammad), the Torah (given to Moses), the Gospel (given to Jesus), the Psalms (given to David), and the Scrolls (given to Abraham). Muslims believe that these earlier scriptures in their original form were divinely revealed, but that only the Quran remains as it was first revealed to the prophet Muhammad."

willnat
willnat

Back to the matter at hand --- Bishop Morlino's strong defense of the truth. Below is an interesting article that demonstrates his concern for the Church and its faithful. Read the first comment about him visiting abortion protesters on a picket line. It's appropriate that this article appears on a website with the name courageouspriest.com."

http://www.courageouspriest.com/category/bishop-robert-morlino

Coinneach
Coinneach

As soon as the fairy godmother cult starts sheltering pedophiles and and trying to force their beliefs on the general populace you can be sure we'll start attacking the fairy bishops.

willnat
willnat

So my comeback could justifiably be to relate Stalin's mass murdering henchmen to your favorite atheist writers. But I won't stoop that low. (At least not in this comment)

willnat
willnat

I find it interesting that atheists here spend so much time attacking the bishop of a church that worships something the atheists do not believe exists. Maybe this is a prove of God's existence --- that He (God) is attacked. After all, who attacks unicorns or the fairy godmother? Only things that are real are worth attacking.

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

The Catholic Church is real. God is not. I find it revealing that you can't tell the difference.

willnat
willnat

Oh no, both are real. And they are not the same, but they are closely related . . . the Catholic Church is the institution left by Jesus Christ who was the one, true Son of the God of the Old Testament.

You, of course, don't believe this . . . but that doesn't make it untrue.

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

And you, of course, DO believe it, which doesn't make it true.

But we've been down this road too many times before and are starting to repeat ourselves. I merely point out for the record how quickly you slid, in your original comment above, from the accurate observation that many of us here are attacking a (real) bishop and his (real) church to the inference that we were therefore attacking (imaginary) God, to say nothing of the ludicrous leap from there to the idea that this somehow "proves" God must be real.
 
I play Dungeons & Dragons, and in that fantasy world, characters really can conjure living beings into existence just by imagining them. You seem to think the same rules apply here, that if you just clap hard enuf, Tinker Bell or Jesus will magically spring to life, called into being by the accumulated power of enuf people wishing for it to be true. This is an interesting hypothesis, and you should come back with your results after you've subjected it to rigorous testing under falsifiable circumstances.

Sardath
Sardath

Unfortunately, this confusion is not uncommon among Catholics. I have heard Catholics say that Bishop Morlino is "Christ walking among us". I have even heard them say, not entirely in jest, that the Church is the Body of Christ, and Christ is God, therefore the Church is God. And of course Bishop Morlino himself has said that "there can be no separation between Christ and his Church"--which is really scary when you consider some of the things that the Church has done over the centuries.

Even more unfortunately, the confusion between clergy and deity is rooted in the official teachings of the Church. The "Roman Catechism" of 1566 (which is still in effect and is cited as authoritative in the current Catechism of the Catholic Church) says:

"Bishops and priests being, as they are, God's interpreters and ambassadors, empowered in His name to teach mankind the divine law and the rules of conduct, and holding, as they do, His place on earth, it is evident that no nobler function than theirs can be imagined. Justly, therefore, are they called not only angels, but even gods, because of the fact that they exercise in our midst the power and prerogatives of the immortal God."

This may well be the real reason why the Church has sheltered criminal priests over the centuries instead of turning them over to the secular authorities for prosecution: Who in his right mind would allow mere humans to extract justice from a god?

willnat
willnat

If indeed it uses the word "god" here, it obviously would mean in the same way they use the word to refer to Greek gods which are not divine. One can get into trouble by taking words written 450 years ago and applying 21st century definitions.

willnat
willnat

And for the Catholic Church to refer to a bishop as identical with Christ would be to commit blasphemy. No sane church leader would do that.

BTW, to say "there can be no separation between Christ and his Church" is not the same as to say "there can be no separation between Christ and the evil people who sometimes associate themselves with the Church" Can you understand the difference here?

sarge
sarge

what do you mean I don't have a fairy godmother?

willnat
willnat

Ha!

array1
array1

How sad the fact that there is no evidence the most important thing in you life even exists. Are you sure your a genius??

Coinneach
Coinneach

To be an "agnostic atheist," as I am, is simply to lack belief in any supernatural entity commonly worshipped as "gods" by human religions. It is not an assertive or proactive position. I simply lack belief because I have seen no credible scientific evidence that such beings exist. The "agnostic" part of my self-description confirms that I do not positively assert that no such being exists, and if I encountered credible evidence I would be open to changing my position regarding the existence of supernatural deities.

To sum up, I cannot claim to know with absolute certainty that there are no gods, but neither do I believe any such beings exist because I see no compelling reason to believe they do. My lack of belief exists entirely apart from, and does not depend upon, the ubiquity of believers around me.

When you understand why you do not believe in Zeus or Krishna, you will understand why I don't believe in any of them.

willnat
willnat

Maybe you should take into consideration the number of people who believe in the God of the Old Testament. The sheer numbers are enough to warrant recognition from an unbiased person.

I hope that you do not, like another poster here, dismiss the beliefs of four billion people and call them "idiots."

sarge
sarge

4 billion believe in god/allah/krishna/budda?

please provide proof

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

The most popular internet source for this kind of information is adherents.com, where we find this info about world religions:
1. Christianity: 2.1 billion
2. Islam: 1.5 billion
3. Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion
4. Hinduism: 900 million
5. Chinese traditional religion: 394 million
6. Buddhism: 376 million
7. primal-indigenous: 300 million
8. African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million
9. Sikhism: 23 million
10. Juche: 19 million
11. Spiritism: 15 million
12. Judaism: 14 million
13. Baha'i: 7 million
14. Jainism: 4.2 million
15. Shinto: 4 million
16. Cao Dai: 4 million
17. Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million
18. Tenrikyo: 2 million
19. Neo-Paganism: 1 million
20. Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand
21. Rastafarianism: 600 thousand
22. Scientology: 500 thousand

In case you've never before heard of #10, Juche, it's the mindset inculcated into the captive population of North Korea that essentially borrows the model of the old Roman empire and treats the latest dictator Kim as a kind of god on Earth. It claims 100% of the population there and 0% anywhere else on Earth. How many North Koreans ACTUALLY believe it? Who can tell?

willnat
willnat

The God of the Old Testament is the same God worshiped by Christians, Jews, and Muslims. Look it up.

IowaMike
IowaMike

RichardSRussell,

Thanks for proving our earlier post exchange.........everyone was born with moral law stamped on their heart and from the beginning of time man worshiped God. So to your earlier point that all children are born as atheists is simply 'atheist mumbo jumbo'.

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

Still flogging that "it's popular so it must be true" horse, eh, WillNat? Give it up, dude. Just like Jesus, it's never coming back from the dead.

I haven't taken the time to look, but did you ever get around to answering my earlier question about how the world was really flat 2000 years ago just because everybody thot it was?

willnat
willnat

The flatness of the earth was a question for science to resolve. The question of the existence of God is one for faith to answer.

willnat
willnat

"it's popular so it must be true"

No, if "it's popular THERE'S A GOOD CHANCE IT'S PROBABLY true"

IowaMike
IowaMike

RichardSRussell,

Sure, I can answer that.....everybody....Catholics, atheists, agnostics etc. believed that the earth was flat. So your question has no impact, no meaning, no bearing...nothing. Your ancestors were as guilty of ignorance as anyones until science proved differently.

I've asked you repeatedly to provide your evidence that there is no God......I'm still waiting.

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

To IowaMike (below):

The reason you're still waiting is, I suppose, because you didn't scroll down and read my answer to your original question. It's that little gray slidey thing over there on the right.

So I take it that you agree with WillNat, that the world really WAS flat 2000 years ago, because (as you say) EVERYBODY THOT SO!

IowaMike
IowaMike

RichardSRussell,

You were the one that was using the flat earth comment to ridicule others....I merely pointed out that everyone in the day believed the same thing.

As to your proof that God does not exist....the fact you don't believe doesn't provide proof.

So we are again at the stalemate......brothers in faith belief at different ends of the spectrum.

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

Speaking of unanswered challenges, here's one from earlier in the conversation:

So, WllNat, if I join you in condemning the undoubted and well documented atrocities of Communism, will you join me in also condemning the equally undoubted and equally well documented atrocities of the Catholic Church, on the theory that 2 wrongs don't make a right?

So, to be explicit, I herewith heartily condemn and deplore the undoubted and well documented atrocities of the Soviet Union and Communists in general.

OK, then, your turn. I'll even make it easy. Just copy the following and paste it into a reply under your name:

I herewith heartily condemn and deplore the undoubted and well documented atrocities of the Catholic Church and religion in general.

willnat
willnat

Since you choose the original wording, I have a right to tweak it. So here it is:

I herewith heartily condemn and deplore the undoubted and well-documented atrocities committed by individuals when they were leaders or followers in the Catholic Church or associated with religion in general.

IowaMike
IowaMike

RichardSRussell,

You'll have to do better than a bunch of oh the Catholic Church is evil.....dates, times, places etc. Has some in the CC done bad things sure, but nothing compared to the murderous stuff done by your brother atheists... I'm gonna love making you answer for them.......150 million dead in the last 150 years. Bring it...lol.

Sardath
Sardath

The Diocese's "Synopsis of Concerns" is now posted on the diocesan web site. It's quite an interesting read. Among the other things:

(1) The document says that "at its core the New Age way of thinking calls for a 'paradigm shift,' in a number of fundamental areas, including, a shift from Newtonian mechanistic physics to quantum physics, from modernity’s exaltation of reason to an appreciation of feeling, emotion, and experience, and from a dominance of masculinity and patriarchy to a celebration of femininity, in individuals and in society".

So if you accept the reality of modern physics, think that God gave us both intellect and emotion, and don't think men should oppress women, you're a heretic? Well, that's nice to know.

(2) The document also complains about the work of Catholic priest Albert Nolan, who wrote about a Jesus who "challenged the rich to identify in solidarity with the poor". Well, of course we can't have that. It's just fine if Bishop Morlino openly defends a political candidate who cut his "social justice" teeth on Ayn Rand. It's just fine if the Diocese invites a Randist priest here to speak at Theology on Tap and indoctrinate the faithful in the virtues of free-market capitalism. But we sure can't have anyone proposing a Jesus who says that the rich should show solidarity with the poor! Even though the real Jesus, of course, did exactly that.

(3) Best of all, the concern with "indifferentism" is cited to the encyclical "Mirari Vos" by Pope Gregory XVI in 1832. There are a lot of interesting teachings in Mirari Vos, including the following:

(a) that "liberty of conscience" is an "absurd and erroneous proposition" and "a pestilence more deadly to the state than any other" which inevitably leads to the corruption of youth and the downfall of civilization;

(b) that freedom of the press is a "harmful and never sufficiently denounced" evil, that those who defend it are "depraved", and that the Church has not only the right but the duty to "exterminate the deadly poison of so many books" by seeing to it that "the criminal sources of depravity perish in flames";

(c) that monarchy is the only Christian form of government, democracy being nothing more than "treason and sedition" and "detestable insolence" against "the unchanging subjection to princes" which "necessarily proceeds from the most holy precepts of the Christian religion";

(d) that separation of Church and state is an error of "the shameless lovers of liberty" who desire to "break the mutual concord between temporal authority and the priesthood ... which always was favorable and beneficial for the sacred and the civil order";

(e) that those who hold to any other religion or even adhere to a schismatic sect (e.g., Protestants and Eastern Orthodox) "will without a doubt perish forever", and those who believe that it is even possible for non-Catholics to be saved are guilty of a "perverse opinion" and "deadly error" which is "spread on all sides by the fraud of the wicked".

So if you are a faithful Catholic, you can forget about freedom of speech, freedom of the press, liberty of conscience, separation of Church and state, democratic government, and any hope that non-Catholics can be saved from eternal damnation. All that must perish in the flames so that the one true faith can be restored to its proper position as the undisputed master of the world.

willnat
willnat

You state "The Diocese's "Synopsis of Concerns" is now posted on the diocesan web site" as if it was just uploaded.

But my search of the site does not reveal this. Can you provide the address of the web page on which this is found?

I'd like to check out the above statements that you made, such as that the bishop believes those "who believe that it is even possible for non-Catholics to be saved are guilty of a "perverse opinion" and "deadly error."" Show me where he says that!!! Let me see where you pulled out these words. I bet it does not mean what you would LIKE it to.


Sardath
Sardath

Go to "http://www.madisondiocese.org".

Look on the right-hand side of the page under "Diocesan News". (You may have to scroll down a bit to see it.)

Click on "Synopsis documents from VG re:Wisdom's Well".

Open the document and go to the bottom of page 2. Read the paragraph headed "Indifferentism". Note especially the reference to Pope Gregory XVI and his encyclical entitled Mirari Vos.

Now go to "http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Greg16/g16mirar.htm". This should bring up a copy of Mirari Vos in English.

Read the encyclical. Everything I described in points (a) through (e) is in there.

And please note that I did not attribute those statements to Bishop Morlino, but to Pope Gregory.

Try reading more carefully next time.

willnat
willnat

You're right, I only gave your comment a quick reading. You started with "The Diocese's "Synopsis of Concerns" is now posted on the diocesan web site. It's quite an interesting read." and then you switched to quoting from a 180-tear-old papal encyclical for the remaining 60% of your post. It was rather confusing. Maybe, poor folks like me would be helped if you stuck with Bishop Morlino's own words.

BTW, Papal encyclicals are not considered by the Church to be infallible unless it is so stated by the Pope.

Thanks for giving me the actual text of the diocese's statement. It is important for all to read.

IowaMike
IowaMike

Sardath,

What a bunch of hokum.....typical of people like you to take stuff out of context, exclude subsequent explanatory documents, subsequent history but one thing you cannot do.....is disprove the existence of God.....waiting.

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

I gotta say that I don't really have a dog in this fight. To me, as an atheist, New Age beliefs are just as woo-woo crazy as what the Catholics believe. The main difference is that the Aquarians don't have a long track record of persecutions and atrocities, but they're still only loosely tethered to reality.

Is there some way they can BOTH lose? One can only hope.

JoeBlow
JoeBlow

RR, you said: "To me, as an atheist, New Age beliefs are just as woo-woo crazy as what the Catholics believe. The main difference is that the Aquarians don't have a long track record of persecutions and atrocities,..."

I find your comment pretty silly and ignorant. Afterall, there have never been any atrocities or persecutions committed by Atheists, right? (Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Mussolini,to name a few). I'm not justifying what has been done in the name of Christianity in the past, just please spare us the pontification of atheism over religion.

IowaMike
IowaMike

JoeBlow,

Typical of atheists.....he will ignore history to feed his delusions.

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

This is as ridiculous as saying that we should blame Tom Selleck and Geraldo Rivera for the atrocities committed by those OTHER guys with mustaches, Adolf Hitler and Josef Stalin.
 
The difference between Stalin and Torquemada is that Torquemada committed his atrocities BECAUSE OF HIS RELIGIOUS BELIEFS. Stalin just happened to be an atheist, just like he happened to be a Georgian and former Orthodox seminarian. Those were CHARACTERISTICS, they weren't MOTIVATIONS.

IowaMike
IowaMike

Sardath,

You rant.....if you want to bow to the wind or a tree....go for it.

Sardath
Sardath

You have no idea what I bow to. You might be surprised if you did. But that's beside the point.

The point is that the Catholic Church you are so enamored of is not at all what it pretends to be. All you have to do to see this is to read its own documents with an open mind and draw the obvious conclusions. If any other institution were making the sort of claims or playing the same sort of dishonest games that the Catholic Church does, you'd denounce it in a minute. But since it's your Church, and you want to remain a member in good standing, you blind yourself to what's really going on and fall back instead on apologetic talking points and ridiculous excuses that you would never accept in any other context.

IowaMike
IowaMike

Sardoth,

The Catholic Church is the first and oldest religious institution on the planet earth. It has withstood 2000 + years of scrutiny and you...you have become the agent who has read the documents and condemned it....I don't think so. Your remarks lack substance, facts etc.

Hugh Mann
Hugh Mann

"The Catholic Church is the first and oldest religious institution on the planet earth. It has withstood 2000 + years of scrutiny and you...you have become the agent who has read the documents and condemned it....I don't think so. Your remarks lack substance, facts etc."

Here is a fact for you Mikey, the world is older than 2000 years, or even 6006 years. The catholic church is a criminal tax exempt enterprise, and pandora's box has been opened on it, so no amount of your histrionics is gonna change that. It's over for you Catholics. The Savita incident clearly demonstrates that.

My advice to you? Move to Ireland.

Read more: http://host.madison.com/news/local/bishop-robert-morlino-cracks-down-on-madison-nuns-for-espousing/article_37f434d0-4325-11e2-a826-001a4bcf887a.html#ixzz2F2xFyWJU

Hugh Mann
Hugh Mann

Let's talk about pedophilia in the Roman Catholic Church than, Mikey.

That should get your puritan blood boiling.

sarge
sarge

I guess given the track record of Morlino's idols at the former School Of The Americas
these nuns should feel fortunate not to have been shot in a roadside ditch as was the fate of some other nuns(and priests) who went against catholic church tenents in general and the opinion then Cardinal Ratzinger in particular with their embrace of liberation theology in El Salvador. Amazing to me that this man sits to this day on the board thus lending legitimacy to those who trained salvidorian officers in terror techniques which were used to kill so many priests and nuns including american citizens.

Sadly Morlino has not had the guts to address this issue directly: My question to Morlino:why would you lend legitimacy and cover to this institution without critique unless you believes that state sanctioned murder is OK when nuns and priests leave fold of established church doctrine?
"Western Hemisphere Institute for Security CooperationMorlino currently serves as the chairman of the Board of Directors of the National Catholic Bioethics Center, and as chairman of the Board of Visitors of the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation, formerly known as the School of the Americas (SOA). Morlino has denied any wrongdoing by this military school that for decades has trained military officers from Latin America. Former students from this school have been found guilty of thousands of political killings, including the assassination of the Servant of God, Archbishop Oscar Romero and of six Jesuit priests, their housekeeper and her daughter in El Salvador. Morlino told the Wisconsin State Journal (11/4/2007), "I know for a fact there is no evidence to connect what the school teaches with any kind of atrocity".


The U.N. Truth Commission's statistics reveal the extent of the School's murderous role in El Salvador .

Romero assassination 3 officers cited --- 2 were SOA graduates
Murder of US nuns 5 officers cited --- 3 were SOA graduates
Union leader murders 3 officers cited --- 3 were SOA graduates
El Junquillo massacre 3 officers cited --- 2 were SOA graduates
El Mazote massacre 12 officers cited --- 10 were SOA graduates
Dutch journalist murders 1 officer cited --- he was an SOA graduate
Las Hojas massacre 6 officers cited --- 3 were SOA graduates
San Sebastian massacre 7 officers cited --- 6 were SOA graduates
Jesuit massacre 26 officers cited --- 19 were SOA graduates

In other Latin American countries, graduates of the SOA have been equally prominent enemies of human rights. Former dictators Omar Torrijos of Panama, Guillermo Rodriguez of Ecuador, and Juan Velasco Alvarado of Peru, all overthrew constitutionally elected governments in their countries. Leopoldo Galtieri, the former head of the Argentina junta defeated in the Falklands War, was responsible for thousands of "disappeared" citizens who supported freedom and democracy in Argentina, and paid the ultimate price with their lives. He was an SOA graduate.

In Honduras, General Humberto Ragalado Hernandez, was trained at the SOA at the same time that he was linked to Columbian drug cartels, and the highest ranking officers in the Honduran Death Squad were trained at SOA as well.

In Peru, the most senior officers convicted of the February 1994 murder of nine university students and a professor, were graduates of the SOA. In Columbia, a 1992 human rights tribunal cited 246 officers for crimes against the people of Columbia. 105 of the officers were trained at the SOA. In Panama, ex-dictator Manuel Noriega, formerly on the CIA payroll, graduated from the SOA. He is now in a US prison, convicted of trafficking in drugs.

In Guatemala, a country of 10 million, the indigenous Mayan population of 6 million have endured the greatest suffering in Latin America. During more than 30 years of civil war, tens-of-thousands have been slaughtered, with the total killed estimated to exceed 200,000. Most of the ranking generals involved in the numerous coups and acts of terror and murder during this period were trained at the SOA.

In the 1970s and early 1980s, in Guatemala, thousands of political activists and opponents of government policies were assassinated. General Manuel Antonio Callejas y Callejas, Chief of Army Intelligence at the time, was cited by the UN as the individual responsible for most of those murders. He graduated from the SOA. One of the most vicious tyrants in recent Guatemalan history is Jose Efrain Rios Montt. General, dictator, and a former president from 1982-83, Rios Montt was proud of his political philosophy of "beans for the obedient; bullets for the rest". He was also a graduate of the SOA.

The impact of SOA graduates on Latin American freedom has been devastating. Armed with sophisticated training, modern weapons, and up-to-date techniques of control and surveillance, graduates of the SOA have terrorized their own countrymen for a generation.

In the name of its citizens and using American taxpayer dollars, the United States, the most-democratic of countries, has for decades been training some of the most anti-democratic leaders in the world. Administrations that have decried terrorism abroad, have encouraged terrorists right here at home -- at the SOA.

Our country, for generations, a beacon of liberty and democracy to the world, should play no part in subverting democracy and killing hope in other countries. Americans who condemn world terror should condemn just as strongly America's training of Third World terrorists. It is time for all of us to demand that the School of the Americas be closed.

in other news:In the face of complaints that Paul Ryan, a Catholic United States Representative who resides in the diocese of Madison under Morlino's care, was going against Catholic social teaching by supposedly cutting funding for programs for the poor. Morlino defended him by saying that he is a Catholic in good standing, and these issues are issues on which faithful Catholics may discuss and disagree

apparently it helps to be a dude if you go against the teachings of the church

Edgeworld
Edgeworld

Wow, did you nail him. Seriously, props to you.

sarge
sarge

interestingly there was a very strong correlation between time spent "learning" at the school of the americas and the likelyhood that a student would commit attrocities...this relationship was not in any way inverse.. further reading finds morlino saying his role at the school is to "better it's good name". if it has a good name I'd hate to finda similar "school" with a bad name.

IowaMike
IowaMike

Sarge,

That is absurd.....any proof? I thought not.

sarge
sarge


to put some faces on this terrible era:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maura_Clarke
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Donovan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ita_Ford
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Kazel

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/04/03/world/4-salvadorans-say-they-killed-us-nuns-on-orders-of-military.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

IowaMike
IowaMike

Sarge,

Please explain the actions of Kim Jong il and his son...atheists through and through...their atrocities dwarf anything the Catholic Church has ever done.
Want statistics....just look 'em up.

IowaMike
IowaMike

Sarge,

What does this prove....if true, that some Catholics went off the Catholic reservation. I love atheists that cherry pick....how about the atheist SA and African dictators that killed thousands to hold onto power.....that is apparently OK. Go ahead and cherry pick but the atheist record is in the millions and millions and coninues today.....

How about Agusto Pinochet.....Chilean atheist dictator....killed about 1,500 people, interned about 80,000 and tortured about 30,000. I guess that must be OK with you.

See you can't win this argument because on the facts.....atheists have a record of genocide that drawfs anything Catholics have ever done.

Pinochet
Pol Pot
Hitler
Stalin
Mussoulini
Lenin
Amin
Kim Jong il
Mugabe

These modern day killers murdered millions.....when you can explain their actions then you can criticize the Church...until then you just engaging in sophistry.

Sardath
Sardath

Pinochet was not an "atheist"; he was a Roman Catholic, and had the support of some powerful Catholic institutions.

Hitler was raised Catholic, publicly presented himself as a devout Christian, signed a concordat with the Vatican, was elevated to absolute power with the help of the Catholic Center Party, and was never excommunicated; in his private discussions with his henchmen, he declared that he had learned a great deal from the Catholic Church and had in fact patterned Nazi institutions on the Catholic model.

Mussolini was able to hold onto power in Italy because the Church ordered its followers to stand down when they attempted to oppose him; his brutal wars in Africa were trumpeted by Church officials as a victory for Christian civilization.

Also in 20th-century Europe there was Franco in Spain, as well as the dictators of Portugal, Austria, Croatia, and Bohemia--all of them Catholics, and all of them supported by the Church.

The Communists no doubt killed more overall, but the Catholics were no slackers either.

IowaMike
IowaMike

You can call yourself whatever you want but it don't make it so......Pinochet did not live to any of the teachings of the Church....the guy was a mad dog atheist in behavior. As for Catholic supporters....no doubt nobody ever said there weren't some bad Catholics.

Sardath
Sardath

Continuing from my previous note:

Mugabe was also a Roman Catholic: raised by two Catholic parents, studied in Marist and Jesuit schools, married in a Catholic Mass at a Catholic college. One of his children is apparently named after St. Robert Bellarmine.

Most of the rest have some sort of Catholic or Orthodox connection:

Amin was Muslim, but his father converted to Islam from Roman Catholicism.

Pol Pot was educated in a Catholic school.

Lenin's father was devout Russian Orthodox.

Stalin was also raised Russian Orthodox, and reportedly even attended seminary before switching his allegiance to Communism.

Only Kim Jong Il seems to be completely outside the fold.

As one historian aptly put it in describing the depredations of the 20th century:

"The new dictators whose careers dominated the headlines of the next generation were almost to a man of Roman Catholic background: Mussolini, Hitler, Dollfuss, Schuschnigg, Tito, Franco, Salazar, Petain, Peron. In many cases they won or retained power by Vatican support. And although some of the most startling Roman Catholic political gains were in democratic Britain and the United States, nevertheless the world policy which the Vatican under Pius XI pursued ... was pro-Fascist."

Something to think about.


IowaMike
IowaMike

Yea, none practiced, all abandoned the faith in favor of atheism and were atheists when they committed their atrocious acts which were in gross violation of everything the Church teaches. Get a grip. Hitler was a Catholic and went on to persecute Catholics and Catholic religious.

You can't buck history on this one.....it has spoken and these guys were atheists.

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

So, Mike, are you willing to endorse the following language?

I herewith heartily condemn and deplore the undoubted and well-documented atrocities committed by individuals when they were leaders or followers in the Catholic Church or associated with religion in general.

Hugh Mann
Hugh Mann

"Our Core Values are Truth, Compassion, Partnership, Community, and Justice."

Science is peculiarly absent from your core values. That explains a lot.

woodchuck76
woodchuck76

That's because science isn't a value. It's more of a methodology. Of course, science is concerned with truth (presumably). Which was the first value listed.

willnat
willnat

Thank you for correcting Hugh Mann. I notice he didn't reply to your correction.

Hugh Mann
Hugh Mann

You think I hang around this forums 24/7 just to enlighten the delusional?

You are cultists. Even worse, cultists wearing funny clothes claiming to offer the only truth, the one and only way to the truth. I know that to be delusional thinking.

Even worse, you are granted tax exempt status in the 21st century for the privilege of peddling your nonsense to the ignorant. That is going to change.

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

Yup, SCIENCE is concerned with truth. Religion, not so much.

Again, opinion based on actions speaking louder than words.

IowaMike
IowaMike

RichardSRussell,

I'm sill awaiting your scientific proof that God does not exist.....I agree actions speak louder than words.

Hugh Mann
Hugh Mann

"I'm sill awaiting your scientific proof that God does not exist.

Your ignorance is showing. Science doesn't prove anything, mathematics is the realm of proof. Science demonstrates that your framework of knowledge is valid and works in the framework in which it is applied. When you find a failure of science to describe something in your framework of logic and mathematics, indeed, in language itself, you invent or create additions to that framework.

Thus progress proceeds. We know this works because we constantly test it.

Now on the issue of god, since you haven't even properly defined the concept of god, and your descriptions of god is pure nonsense, science can't even begin to comment on it. You'll just have to come to grips with your nonsense.

Tax exempt nonsense. I have to admit, your scam works well enough for the church. Too bad more and more people are seeing just how idiotic religion is.

Hugh Mann
Hugh Mann

Not correct. Science is a belief just like everything else. It just happens to be a verifiable belief, and thus gets you closer to the truth, by many orders of magnitude, than any other belief. Religion reveals no truth whatsoever, it is entirely fabricated and even worse, unverifiable and unfalsifiable. Science is the only value with any value.

Hugh Mann
Hugh Mann

"Thus, 4 of the 7 billion people believe in the God of the Old Testament --- with more in Russia and China believing every day. That, my friend, is a great reason to think that this God is real."

In science that is called an appeal to authority, and these people are hardly authorities. You can't even properly define the term 'god' let alone demonstrate its existence. What you are espousing in belief, in particular - belief in authorities. That's outright authoritarianism.

The only thing you are demonstrating with your claim is that the vast majority of human beings are scientifically illiterate idiots. I agree with you there. Including and especially you.

willnat
willnat

1. You say these people are authorities then you say they are "hardly authorities." Make up your mind.

2. You think "the vast majority of human beings are scientifically illiterate idiots." That's an elitist attitude typical of atheists.

3. The fact that 4 of 7 billion people on earth believe in the God of the Old Testament shows a level and extent of agreement that is unique in the world. It shows that this God is the one true God. Not the "god" of a cult of 500 people or not nothingness offered by atheists.

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

I am delighted to see that you think of atheists as an elite.

There, see, I can purposely misconstrue the meaning of words just like you.

IowaMike
IowaMike

RichardSRussell,

Elite....no, just misguided egotists.

Hugh Mann
Hugh Mann

"Elite....no, just misguided egotists."

As opposed to say, the criminal tax exempt scam artists known as the Roman Catholic Church. We saw recently in Ireland just how bankrupt your faith is.

Hugh Mann
Hugh Mann

An appeal to authority is generally applied to arguments of people who you think are authorities, not to actual authorities. Scientists are not authorities, they are merely offers of opinions of belief that are based upon empirical evidence and observation, augmented by mathematics and logic, which when phrased properly can either be verified or falsified, which in turn generates temporary truths about the world in which we live. That is the most accurate truth that you can obtain, which is sequentially replaced by even more accurate truths. There is no absolute truth. Thus religion is easily falsified since it claims to posses absolute truth, which in not attainable. If you want absolute truth, try mathematics, another construction of the mind that is also either falsifiable or verifiable. Science - it works, bit##es.

elainebeaubien
elainebeaubien

I teach at Edgewood College and have been teaching there for over 3 decades. Our Core Values are Truth, Compassion, Partnership, Community, and Justice. The fine women currently banned in what is supposed to be a place where values such as these are celebrated is both abhorrent and a mystery to those of us who know them. In my opinion the Sinsinawa Sisters, and their affiliates like Paula, are the embodiment of these values. They live them every day. It is their calling. It is their vow.

If Jesus came to Madison to celebrate his birthday this year, I believe he would seek these women out and invite them to engage in a beautiful dialogue. He would thank them for following His words and His intent. For keeping the promises they made to Him. For making a difference in the world in His name. For working for peace with compassion and strength.

My grannie used to say, “Sitting in church doesn’t make you a Christian any more than sitting on a stove makes you a pot.” Grannie would always direct that at people in the church who needed a refresher on the teachings and words of Jesus. I direct them at the Bishop at this time.

I think the Bishop needs to hear the voice of Jesus. I think the Bishop needs to get out more.

willnat
willnat

I do not doubt that these sisters are compassionate, dedicated people. That's not in question here. What is in question is whether they taught things that are fundamentally opposed to the basic truths of the Catholic Church. If that is so, there is no possible reason to let them continue preaching.

Since you are an employee at the college, I would very much like to hear your opinion/observations regarding this point.

Norwood44
Norwood44

Morlino is a radically convervative catholic administrator. Much like the mullahs of radical Islam he seeks to take our Madison back in time. He wants to rule by fear and power derived by moral authority he does not posses but longs to have. He can do damage. Witness what has already happened in Platteville. Morlino wants women to become obedient chattel once again. Freedom of thought and expresssion are to be punished. And toadies like wilnat will be at his side to spout obscure, arbitrary nonsense as if it were law...or relevant. Wilnat deems himself to be arbiter of what is holy. For only Morlino and Wilnat are true believers. They are the high priests that Christ threw out of the temple. Thankfully we live in a community where these fearful, smarmy, petty little people can be shouted down. This is going to be fun. If we do things right, Morlino will be called back to Rome where he can dress up in robes and drink cheap wine for the rest of his days, and mumbling about the good old days when being wearing a goofy mitre was still something to fear. And wilnat can set up an altar in his basement and say Latin mass by himself, for a congregation of no one.

Fartinthewind
Fartinthewind

Nicely said norwood. Can't remember his name, but Morlino's minion in Platteville is doing a fine job of emptying the pews.

IowaMike
IowaMike

The only people I see shouting others down are the pre-tend Catholics who want an anything goes Church.

Your arguments lack direction, substance and facts. The two nuns in question are being disciplined for abandoning Catholic doctrine. What you can't stand is there are Catholic bishops that will do their job and take action. Stand-by more is coming as bishops across the country begin disciplining the leadership and heretical members of the LCWR.

You know the Anglicans are look to fill some places abandoned in the pews when thousands have come to the Catholic Church because because of the Anglican's views over ordaining women bishops, gay bishops etc. I think you might fit right in.

Sardath
Sardath

Willnat writes: "the Orthodox Churches (Russian, Greek, etc) are closer to uniting with the Catholic Church than at any time in recent history. How come you don't know that?"

Perhaps because it isn't true.

"Just about the only major difference is obedience to the Pope. The Sacraments, the teachings, etc. are almost the same."

This is certainly not true. And even if it was, it's like saying, "My wife and I agree on almost everything except my insistence on having a mistress." Sometimes one little disagreement is all it takes to break everything.

But in fact the differences go much deeper than that. Some years ago the Ecumenical Patriarch gave a highly significant speech on the essential issues dividing Catholics and Orthodox. The central point of his presentation was this:

"Assuredly, our problem is neither geographical nor one of personal alienation. Neither is it a problem of organizational structures, nor jurisdictional arrangements. Neither is it a problem of external submission, nor absorption of individuals and groups. It is something deeper and more substantive. The manner in which we exist has become ontologically different."

In other words, in his view, after a thousand years of separation the two churches may still share some superficial similarities, but at the core of their being they have become two fundamentally different religions. And also in his view, unless something happens to fundamentally change the essential nature of one side or the other, their ultimate destiny is not one of re-unification, but of a separation which is (in his own words) "everlasting".

From everything I have seen of Orthodox thinking on the subject, this is much closer to the truth of the matter than what you are telling us.

willnat
willnat

Regarding Catholic and Orthodox churches, in 2010, Orthodox Metropolitan John Zizioulas of Pergamon said at a news conference: “There are no clouds of mistrust between our two churches. If we continue like that, God will find a way to overcome all the difficulties that remain.”

Why don't you do some research before attempting to contradict my statements?

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

The fact that Sardath cited a recognized authority (the Ecumenical Patriarch), who contradicted YOUR recognized authority (the Metropolitan of Pergamon), each of you quoting a single sentence, tells me that his research is no better or worse than yours. If his is scoffable, so is yours, and vice versa.

Sardath
Sardath

Willnat: You have no idea how much research I do before responding to you, or anyone else. I do not post things lightly.

Yes, the statement I gave you is a bit dated. On the other hand, that doesn't mean it is not an accurate reflection of the way things are today. As for your preferred expert, Zizioulas has been severely criticized within his own faith for both his theology and his positions on ecumenism, so his opinions cannot be taken as authoritative without further evidence. For example, Archbishop Stylianos of Australia, who studied under Ratzinger in Germany and served as Co-Chair of the official Theological Dialogue with the Roman Catholic Church for more than twenty years, has denounced Zizioulas in rather harsh terms:

"Certainly the tactics of the Metropolitan of Pergamon (John Zizioulas) infuriate me when he dares to say that he is a systematic theologian and argues at the same time that Uniatism 'does not belong on the agenda of the Dialogue'. Uniatism is fraudulent, a clear deception, a people’s masquerade. And the Metropolitan of Pergamon comes and says, that 'the local Churches should deal with such practical problems'. Where did the Metropolitan of Pergamon find such solutions? And to whom is he saying such things, to illiterate people or to those without a brain?"

Stylianos has also said that he has "many reservations as to the possibilities for the reunification of the two Churches" and that he has become "disheartened" at the prospects, with blame for the situation lying on both sides of the divide. All this is from an interview he conducted in 2006--which is not nearly as long ago as the quote I gave you from the Ecumenical Patriarch, but ends up in pretty much the same place.

Sardath
Sardath

One other point: The media reports which quoted Zizioulas on this point were immediately denounced by the head of the Moscow Patriarchate's Department of External Church Relations as a misrepresentation of what actually transpired. His official statement begins: "Contrary to allegations in the press, the Orthodox-Catholic Commission meeting in Vienna has made no ‘breakthrough’ whatsoever." You can read the entire statement here:

http://www.mospat.ru/en/2010/09/27/news27010/

Given that, I think it's fair to say that the "clouds of mistrust" have not yet been dispelled, and the two churches remain far from overcoming the difficulties that remain.

Tea Parody
Tea Parody

Mitt Romney is a Morman, but I voted for him because Obama is an Islamist or a Mohamedist or something. It was not a hard choice at all, especially since Mitt is also white. If he had been an Orthodox then he would be Greek right? I like it better that Mitt is American, because the Greeks don't know how to manage their money, pay back loans, or even to austerity the right way. They do make some really good lamb dishes though.

Maerzie
Maerzie

Obviously "Tea Parody" doesn't know that President Obama is a Christian, but, obviously, there is a LOT he doesn't know, still clinging to the ignorance of racism, which announces the limitation of his thinking abilities!

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

Notice the 2nd word in the screen name? Believe it. Also, google "Poe's Law'.

Father John Morris
Father John Morris

Not necessarily, I am not Greek and I am an Orthodox Christian. The Orthodox Church has people of almost every nationality in the world. Just recently about 500,000 Mayan Native Americans joined the Orthodox Church in Guatemala and southern Mexico.

willnat
willnat

The Orthodox Church is a strong witness for Christ in today's world. Although I'm a Catholic, I have nothing but the greatest admiration and respect for the examples set by its priests and lay people.

willnat
willnat

By the way, the Ecumenical Patriarch's statement you give is 15 years old. Things have changed since then.

pete21982
pete21982

Maureen is a good person with a just heart who does incredible amounts of good at Edgewood College assisting people through tough times in their lives. Apparently, that's not Catholic. I'm done with Morlino and his extremist Catholicism. If being an incredible moral and loving individual isn't welcome in Catholicism, then I'm out.

willnat
willnat

A person can do great acts of compassion but still be mistaken on points of doctrine and pass those errors on to others. Can you understand this?

pete21982
pete21982

Sure. Can you understand why I consider the borderline excommunication of a wonderful woman who espouses the teachings of Jesus Christ to lost and alone college kids in a meaningful way and had made a tremendous spiritual impact to myself and others over decades is enough to challenge my confidence in the system I have trusted for my entire life?

As a person that is wonderful. As an agent of the Catholic church it is not, becasue she is not following the doctrine. No one said she can't continue doing what she does or beleive as she chooses. She just cannot claim to be teaching catholic doctrine. She cannot provide misleading teachings under their name.

IowaMike
IowaMike

Pete21982,

You miss the point. These women are not....are not....espousing the teachings of Jesus Christ. Instead they are promoting polytheism, new ageism, mystical beliefs. They support abortion, homosexual marriage, euthanasia, contraception etc.

These women have abandoned the faith and their bishop is trying to bring them back. They don't comply then he should formally excommunicate them in order to stop them from scandalizing and misleading the faithful. These nuns have already excommunicated themselves 'latae sententiae' but I hope the bishop excommunicates them formally and publicly if they don't obey him.

Hugh Mann
Hugh Mann

"They support abortion, homosexual marriage, euthanasia, contraception etc"

All terrible things (snicker).

Tea Parody
Tea Parody

I agree with the Bishops except on one thing. First, the agreement part. The "new ageism" these nuns indulge in is not of the Church or of God.

Now second, the part I don't agree with, indifferencism. Maybe I'm just apathetic, but I really don't care about that at all.

willnat
willnat

Indifferentism is a very important matter since there are contradictions between the doctrine of the different religions. If you say one is as true as another, you are in essence saying there is no real truth since something can't be both true and untrue. This is the same as to claim that Catholicism is untrue. If you claim that, you should not be teaching under the auspices of a Catholic institution.

Joseph_B_Starck
Joseph_B_Starck

Your unicorn retort, RichardSRussell, does not syllogistically match mine. You claim to have discovered unicorns. You have a description. I do not claim to have discovered God. I have no description.

"The veracity of (my) premises" is this:

My use of "ineffable matter" is that which is undiscovered. Science is about the process of discovery, i.e., the history of science has two parts, that which is discovered and that which is undiscovered, both which are one and the same. What is discovered was once undiscovered. What is effable was once ineffable. Before it was discovered, it was undiscovered. Before it was effable it was ineffable. Ineffable matter exists because ineffable matter is half the history of science. To ask how I could possibly know that God is ineffable matter, RichardSRussell, is to ask how I could possibly know that half the history of science is about ineffable matter.

Therefore, there can be no better God proof stated than mine. Fact: I've defined the process of discovery and placed God in it without describing God.

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

You evidently don't understand the difference between the formal STRUCTURE of a syllogism and its CONTENT. Let me paint a more down-home version of it for you.
  (1) I have a bag of Halloween candy.
  (2) A Hershey bar is a type of Halloween candy.
  (3) Therefore I have a Hershey bar.

See the problem? Maybe you do have a Hershey bar in that bag, maybe you don't, but you can't tell without looking. The fake syllogism you're trying to cite as proof that you have a Hershey bar has it backwards. (Don't feel too bad; this is such a common logical fallacy that it's dealt with usually in the very first week in a college-level course in formal logic.)

Let's say X is a member of set Y (for example, X = Hershey bar and Y = Halloween candy). It IS accurate to say that, if you have X, then perforce and necessarily you also have Y. It MAY be accurate to say that, if you have Y, then you have to have X, but this is not assured at a logical level. It's entirely possible that your bag of Halloween candy, which you know you have, doesn't contain any Hershey bars at all.

So, here, you're saying that there is a category of thing (Y) called "ineffable matter". Let us grant for the moment that this can be known, even tho the literal meaning of "ineffable" is "unknowable". You're also saying that there's a kind of creature (God = X) that is a KIND of ineffable matter (Y). Maybe so, maybe not so, but NOT PROVED BY THIS LOGICALLY FALLACIOUS FAKE SYLLOGISM. The existence of the category (candy, ineffable matter) tells us nothing about the existence of something within the category (Hershey bar, God).

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

For all you Christians out there who seem to think that merely asserting (without evidence) something about Jesus, God, or the Bible automatically gives you credibility, ask yourself what your reaction would be if somebody made the same assertion to you, except about Zoroaster, Ahura Mazda, or the Zend Avesta. Would you be instantly persuaded? I'm guessing not. Then why on Earth do you think the same tactic is even remotely likely to be effective when you use it?

Joseph_B_Starck
Joseph_B_Starck

RichardSRussell seems to have a problem with Christians partaking of the scientific method, for, "merely asserting (without evidence)" is what is otherwise called a "hypothesis!"

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

No, a hypothesis is a suggested avenue of investigation, a possibility: "This MAY be the case."

An assertion goes beyond that to say that it's a certainty: "This IS the case."

You could have looked this up yourself, you know.

willnat
willnat

Isn't saying "This IS the case" exactly what you are doing? Otherwise, you would be an agnostic, not an atheist.

Joseph_B_Starck
Joseph_B_Starck

Well, RichardSRussell, some people tend to be assertive with their possibilities. And some people tend to be hesitant with their certainties. You tend to misuse duh dictionary.

willnat
willnat

Today, of the 7 billion people on earth, 2.3 billion are Christian, 1.6 billion are Muslim, 1 billion are Hindu, 1 billion are Buddhist, and 1.1 billion have no religious faith but the many of these would be believers if communism had not prevented the people of Russia and China (by force) from hearing of God.

Thus, 4 of the 7 billion people believe in the God of the Old Testament --- with more in Russia and China believing every day. That, my friend, is a great reason to think that this God is real.

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

Completely ignoring the fact that half the groups you cite think that the other half are liars and eternally damned, because they believe in the wrong gods, and that Buddhist are, strictly speaking, closer to atheists than to Christians, let's just look at your logic. 2000 years ago billions of people thot the Earth was flat. That, my friend, is a great reason to think the world is flat, according to your "reasoning".

And I can only laff when you talk about how Communism warped the worldview of Russian and Chinese people while evidently being completely oblivious to the exact same kind of indoctrination, intimidation, forced conversion, and genocide practiced by Christians thru the centuries. All children are born atheists — no belief in gods at all. Where do you suppose they all get it from?
 
Man, I wish I had a genius IQ. I sure wouldn't have squandered it on nonsense the way you have.

willnat
willnat

1. "2000 years ago billions of people that the Earth was flat."
You think 2000 years ago there were billions of people on earth?

2. According to French historian Stéphane Courtois, communism was responsible for the deaths of almost 100 million people. In contrast, It's been estimated that the death toll of the inquisitions was less than 5,000 people. Quite a difference, wouldn't you say. I'm surprised you were not aware of these figures.


Tea Parody
Tea Parody

Mr. Richard S. Russell I'm going to have to correct a statement you made about all children being born atheists. What about down syndrome children? They can not be smart enough to be atheists at such a young age as a new born. I'll bet that even at five years old they still don't have atheism figured out, or have the ability to know they were born an atheist. Anyway, how would you know if a baby was an atheist? It's not like newborns know how to pray, but refuse to pray because they are atheists. Just just aren't smart enough not to pray.

Now if you were to attend church with me at the First Republican Evangelical Denomination of Churchianity you would find a lot of fine people who 1. Vote Republican because that's how Jesus votes, and 2. Don't raise their children thinking that unions or commies are the same thing as being smarter than even a fifth grader.

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

To WillNat (below): Did I think that there were billions of people on Earth 2000 years ago? Yup. Was I right? Nope. Off by about an order of magnitude. Probably only about 100-200 million.

The take-home point, however, is that virtually all of them thot the world was flat, and by your "reasoning" (which I notice you are desperately hoping I'll ignore in light of my demographic error) that means that the world is flat, because enuf people thinking something is true makes it true.
 
And again, skipping over the specific numbers of massacrees so we don't get into a pissing contest about whose sources are superior or more credible, let me home in on the real issue (which, again, you seem to hope I'll forget), namely my willingness to utterly condemn the Communist genocides and atrocities and my challenge to you to do likewise for the Catholic genocides and atrocities. But evidently you just can't bring yourself to admit that the Catholic Church might EVER have been in the wrong about ANYTHING, can you?

IowaMike
IowaMike

RichardSRussell,

You are indeed a man of faith. Because to conclude that there is 'no God' without proof is to do so by faith. Welome to the club brother! All you 'intellectual' banter, like all the famous atheists contain mockery, insults, name calling, sarcasm etc. because their arguments are empty.

As G.K, Chesterton famously said, "If there were no God, there would be no atheists".

IowaMike
IowaMike

RichardSRussell,

All children are born atheists is simple hyperbole. From the beginning of time mankind in all regions of world adored a god. Even in the most remote parts of the world people worshiped one god or the other. Where does this urge to worship a god come from then, certainly not from an atheist. It comes from the moral law stamped on the hearts of man at birth. That is why man shares in common many moral values and condemn....murder.....stealing......lying.....etc.

In your world there is no moral authority....were this true then chaos would reign and the 'Theory' of Evolution where survival of the fittest would be the only criteria. Like most atheists to try to frame the arugument to support your none belief. Fine with me but don't XXXX on my leg then tell me it's raining.

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

To IowaMike (below):

An atheist is simply a person who does not believe in God. Children are born not believing in ANYTHING. They are therefore atheists. They REMAIN atheists until the indoctrination takes root.

Here's a little clue for ya, Mike. In OUR world (yes, the one the 2 of us share), the only "moral authority" is our fellow human beings. And THEY don't all agree.

As to your logically erroneous Chesterton quotation, you guys obviously all read out of the same hymnal, because somebody already quoted it earlier. I'll say the same thing to you that I said to him. These 2 statements are false:
 • "If there were no God, there would be no atheists."
 • "If there were no unicorns, there would be no people who doubt the existence of unicorns."

This one is true:
 • "If there were no religionists, there would be no atheists."

Monkeybar
Monkeybar

Children are born atheists? Most babies I know are refreshing and enjoyable to be around, quite the opposite of the likes of RR.

So if all children are born atheist, who are the best people will never be distracted by such evils as religion and business, how did it all start? You have a chicken and egg thing here - unless man was in fact created by the hand of a God.

Sorry Richard, you are one of the most religious people I've ever been annoyed by.

PS I'm not religious, so that attack will not bother me. The hypocrisy of your attempted indoctrination; however; does.

IowaMike
IowaMike

RichardSRussell,

There you go again trying to seize the 'moral high-ground' using empty philosophy. Moral law is something that is impressed on peoples hearts....people don't have to be indoctrinated to understand that murder is wrong for example.

One thing I love about you atheists....you just keep repeating the same old line over and over without answering the questions put to you. That simply doesn't cut it in today's world which is why atheists are seen as extreme and will always remain a small minority.

Tea Parody
Tea Parody

Thank God I no longer belief in Zoroaster, Ahura Mazda, or the Zend Avesta. I tried them all, but they all let me down. Now that I attend the First Republican Evangelical Denomination of Churchianity I know that Jesus loves me and that I should never, ever pray to Zoroaster or his friends again. They are all false Gods. The real God knows that 53% of Americans pay income tax and are Republican, like Him. Also, God invented the Republican Party in a fit of anger against slavery. But then the Republicans and the Democrats traded places on that issue and on the issue of colored people getting to vote without paying a poll tax too, and now all the old Dixie states are voting Republican. Now I'm going to try some bold lettering. I used those little sideways "V"s and a slash mark to see if it would work, like it says in Web Page Creation for Dummies. If it didn't work would you tell me how to do it Mr. RichardSRussell?

Hugh Mann
Hugh Mann

Wow, nutty cultists dressed up in funny suits banning other nutty cultists from cultifying.

And the rubes swallow it all, hook line and donation hat tithing sinkers.

willnat
willnat

Okay, okay. You won the "cynic of the year" award.

Judy Jones
Judy Jones


Well, here is proof, We have been saying for a long time now that according to their canon law: THE BISHOP is responsible for every religious org in his territory... SO, when bishops claim it is not their responsibility when a "religious order clergy sexually abuses a child", he is flat out lying. He has to allow them in, and he can kick them out..

I think that Bishop Morlino might regret his abuse of power over others.. He just let the cat out of the bag.

Judy Jones, SNAP Midwest Associate Director, 636-433-2511.snapjudy@gmail.com,

"SNAP (The Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests) is the world's oldest and largest support group for clergy abuse victims. SNAP was founded in 1988 and has more than 12,000 members. Despite the word priest in our title, we have members who were molested by religious figures of all denominations, including nuns, rabbis, bishops, teachers, Protestant ministers and increasingly, victims who were assaulted in a wide range of institutional settings like orphanages, summer camps, athletic programs, Boy Scouts, etc."

Sardath
Sardath

Willnat writes: "Teaching on faith and morals does not change."

Actually, teaching on faith and morals does change--but that's a discussion for another time.

"But scientific knowledge grows. Do you see the difference?"

Certainly scientific knowledge grows. But what does that have to do with the present discussion?

"Also, why don't you account for the changing meaning of words when you quote what someone said 1800 years ago?"

Well, I could give you the quotation in the original Latin, but I doubt many people here could make much sense of that.

"Also, please differentiate between the teachings of the Church and the pronouncements of individuals."

This is a valid point. But then the question is, does Tertullian represent some sort of aberrant personal opinion, or is his view taken up and propagated by the Church as a whole? Pretty clearly it's the latter.

The misogyny of St. Jerome and St. Augustine are legendary and well known, so perhaps there's no need to repeat what they had to say.

Gratian, 12th-century theologian: "The image of God is in man and it is one. Women were drawn from man, who has God’s jurisdiction as if he were God’s vicar, because he has the image of the one God. Therefore Woman is not made in God’s image."

Bernard of Cluny, a medieval Benedictine monk and poet whom the Catholic Encyclopedia describes as a "deeply religious and even mystical soul: "Woman, sordid, perfidious, fallen, besmirches purity, meditates impiety, corrupts life. ... Woman is a wild beast; her crimes are like the sand. ... Woman is a guilty thing, a hopelessly fleshly thing, nothing but flesh, vigorous to destroy, born to deceive, and taught to deceive—the last pitfall, worst of vipers, beautiful rottenness, a slippery pathway, public doorway, sweet poison. All guile is she, fickle, and impious, a vessel of filth, an unprofitable vessel."

Albertus Magnus, 12th-century theologian and teacher of Thomas Aquinas: "Woman is an imperfect man and possesses, compared to him, a defective and deficient nature. ... That which she herself cannot receive, she endeavours to obtain by means of mendacity and devilish tricks."

And finally Thomas Aquinas, the foremost Catholic theologian of all time: "As regards the individual nature, woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active force in the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of woman comes from a defect in the active force or from some material indisposition."

willnat
willnat

The last paragraph is a perfect example of my point that these people did not have the benefit of scientific facts such as that men and women are equal. Nether is a defective copy of the other.

BTW I doubt these men held opinions that are accurately depicted in your soundbites since they held the Virgin Mary in such high regard. So high that people have even misinterpreted it as worship of her!

Sardath
Sardath

They didn't have the benefit of the scientific fact that the earth revolves around the sun, either; that's why the Holy Office declared it "heresy" to teach the motion of the earth, until science finally proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the earth does move.

But this raises another sticky question: Given the supposed infallibility of the Magisterium when pronouncing on such issues, and the alleged divine guidance of the Pope and Bishops even when they are not teaching infallibly, how is it that they failed so grievously in discerning the truth about all this, or at least in realizing that they had no idea what the truth was? Even worse, how could they have gotten things so badly wrong when their own inspired scriptures flatly say, "In Christ there is neither male nor female"? And if they could be so wrong about things like this, even to the point of ignoring or misinterpreting their own holy writ, what other things might they be wrong about?

As for the "scientific fact" that men and women are equal, I'd be interested to see what scientific evidence you have in support of that statement.

With regard to the Virgin Mary, it is precisely because the Church held women in such low regard that it had to come up with the dogma of her Immaculate Conception in order to get her where they needed her to be. Without that, she would have been just like any other woman in their eyes: sordid, perfidious, fallen, the devil's accomplice, etc., etc., etc. And that would have created all sorts of problems.

cc1038
cc1038

Willnat, your retorts have descended (in reality, not too far to fall) into grade school level nah, nahs. This is a waste of time and worse yet, boring.
Good luck with your god(s) and holy men.

willnat
willnat

Your atheism is so very boring. What you consider a waste of time, e.g. worship of a being greater than you, is considered by other people (who are far more intelligent than you) the most important thing in their lives. The thing that gives meaning to their existences. Can you understand that?

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact than a drunken man is happier than a sober one." —George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950), Irish writer

willnat
willnat

Shaw was very witty indeed.

But I think believers in general ARE happier than skeptics ---- although many atheists find great happiness in bashing Christians.

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

To WillNat (below): Again, WIllNat, the fact that YOU THINK something does not make it true. The highest level of life satisfaction is reported by Scandinavian countries, which are heavily atheist. Not far behind are many other Western European nations, with lesser proportions of atheists. Within the US, the highest levels of divorce, poverty, and imprisonment may be found among the most devout Christians. Alcoholism is more of a wash. Data on mental illness are probably too mushy to permit much inference.

IowaMike
IowaMike

RichardSRussell,

Nice that Shaw admits that believers are happer than skeptics.... By the way a drunk may be happier than a sober one but not the next morning. The believer is happy all time.

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

To Mike (below): And STILL no more to the point.

IowaMike
IowaMike

cc1038,

Very arrogant of you......you can't stay engaged because without sarcasm and mockery you have nothing to say. You worship at the alter of atheism but at the end of the day your belief that there is no God is 'faith based', ironic huh?

Sardath
Sardath

IowaMike writes: "The Church did not and has not declared the wars in the Mid-East as 'unjust'."

I never said it did. But then the Church never declared Hitler's wars of aggression against his neighbors to be "unjust" either, so that proves nothing. The fact is, the Church almost never officially declares a war to be unjust, no matter how clearly unjust it is, because (as one of the top officials of the USCCB said at the time of Bush's invasion of Iraq), to do so would create a "crisis of conscience" for the faithful, with consequences which they would prefer to avoid.

Nevertheless, it is a documented fact that some of the Church's highest officials, including Pope John Paul II, Cardinal Ratzinger (Prefect of the CDF and the future Pope Benedict), Archbishop Tauran (the Vatican's foreign minister), Cardinal Ruini (Vicar General of the Diocese of Rome), and the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, publicly stated that it was not clearly established that the war was "just", and that there were good reasons for thinking it was not. And for those who take such things seriously, that is enough--because in Catholic theology, the burden of proof is not on those who would oppose such a war, but on those who would support it. So if a war is not clearly established as "just" then it must be presumed to be "unjust" until proven otherwise, and therefore people of good conscience cannot fight in it or support it in any way.

IowaMike
IowaMike

Nice try but the Church did not declare the Mid-East wars as unjust and you cannot convert the natural inclination of Catholic prelates to preach against war into condemnation. That's sophistry pure and simple. There is no need for someone to make a case for a just war when no-one said it wasn't.

With respect to Hitler. You might want to study some history. Pope Pius XII did oganize protection of Jews by ordering Catholic institutions to take them in. Contrary to pop-condemnation of Pope Pius even the Jews have publicly thanked him for the hundreds of thousands of Jews saved by is actions. Now turn and look at the climate of the times. To publicly oppose Hitler (in Mussolini's Italy) would have been stupid so he did the only thing he could do....coverte operations.

So you can conclude that the Mid-East wars are unjust but that is simply your opinion.

Sardath
Sardath

You have it exactly backwards. There is no need for the Church, or anyone else, to make the case that a particular war is unjust; the presumption in Catholic "just war" theory is that every war is to be considered unjust until its proponents clearly demonstrate otherwise. And that's not easy to do, because the standards are pretty high. As Pope John Paul II declared:

"War is never just another means that one can choose to employ for settling differences between nations. As the Charter of the United Nations Organization and international law itself remind us, war cannot be decided upon, even when it is a matter of ensuring the common good, except as the very last option and in accordance with very strict conditions."

Clearly the American war against Iraq was not "the very last option", nor was it decided or carried out in accord with the very strict conditions set by Catholic just war theory. That means it was unjust by default.

As for your screed about Pius XII and the Nazis, note that I did not say a single word against him or his policies in that regard. And in fact your statement that it would have been "stupid" for him to publicly oppose Hitler only supports what I said above, that the Church almost never officially declares a war to be unjust, no matter how obviously unjust it is, because it does not want to deal with the potential consequences. That's one of the reasons you cannot shift the burden of proof in just war discussions to a question of whether or not the Church officially declared a particular war to be unjust: It almost never does so, and if you wait for it to do so then you will wait forever. The practical result of that approach is to declare all wars "just" by default, which renders the Church's "just war" teaching completely meaningless.

cc1038
cc1038

Willnat: when you find yourself in a hole, stop digging!

willnat
willnat

When you find yourself to be wrong, tell other people they are in a hole and should stop digging.

twentysomething
twentysomething

In regard to all the atheists in this conversation; I'd rather live my life believing in God and die to find out He doesn't exist rather than living my entire life as if there is no God and die to find out that He does. Eternity is a looonngg time...

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

Yeah, yeah, yeah, Pascal's Wager. So wrong in so many different ways that there are entire websites devoted to pointing out all its fallacies. But SOOOOO typical of "loving" Christians to haul out the threats when logic and facts fail them once again.

willnat
willnat

Yeah, Dawkins is so much greater than Pascal. Not!

array1
array1

What if when you die you find out the Jews were right?

willnat
willnat

I expect it will be so since Christ and all of his apostles were Jews.

Robert James
Robert James

So... you're saying your faith exists is at least in part (if not major part) due to your fear of retribution? Your faith is founded in fear?

IowaMike
IowaMike

RobertJames,

Sure I admit it....I want to comply with God's doctrine to earn a place in heaven. So I do fear everlasting condemnation.

So what is your belief that there is no God based upon.....got some proof that he doesn't exist? If you do why don't you share it with the rest of the atheists who have been unable to do so since the beginning of time. You be a 'faith' believer just like me!

Robert James
Robert James

You're assuming I'm an atheist? Far from it! I'm a very devout practitioner of my faith. It's just that the foundation of my faith is based on things other than fear of reprisal from a Deity who is supposed to be of the loving sort.

Oh and a tip: you cannot prove a negative. We've known that for a few thousand years. Asking *me* to prove that your God doesn't exist is meaningless. Now, prove that he *does* exist is theoretically possible, but given the lack of anything like empirical evidence, and then you'd not have faith anymore. You'd have knowledge, which we don't have here. So we're left with faith.

My faith says our existence is a gift, given freely by a Deity whose creative urges are apparently very strong. A *gift*, you see. Not something that has to be paid for by blind obedience, or anything else for that matter.

IowaMike
IowaMike

RobertJames,

No I don't make that assumption, your pentagram says it all........if I remember the topmost point....points to the spirit and the rest point to earth, wind, fire and water....am I right? So you don't believe in a deity but some 'spirit' and honor the rest in your meditations.

In case you missed it most people see a pentagram as a mystical, magical and evil symbol...not a joyous loving one. I've met some wiccans....great they burn sage and appeal to the seasons et al. Nice but very empty.

I agree faith is a gift....one that needs to be nurtured by worship of God not the wind. You say you can prove the existance of God, you should put it out there. We both know you cannot.

GrumpyOldMan
GrumpyOldMan

The existence or non-existence of God and the failure of the Catholic Church to properly deal with pedophilia have nothing to do with these nuns. These were Catholic nuns apparently engaged in teaching in ways heretical to the Catholic Church. And their boss dealt with them as the rules require. The failure of the Church in other areas does not mean the Church has no authority to enforce its own rules. Now, the Church's moral authority with the greater population as been damaged by its failures. But continuing to fail by ignoring heresy is not a solution.

cc1038
cc1038

Myth (a traditional story accepted as history; serves to explain the world view of a people) and superstition (an irrational belief arising from ignorance or fear).
Seems like that pretty much defines religion but.....that's only my opinion.

willnat
willnat

One of the definitions on the Webster dictionary website is: "a person or thing having only an imaginary or unverifiable existence." This is the definition I'm using.

And religion does not fit into this definition because it is not imaginary and, contrary to what fundamentalist atheists say, it is not unverifiable. And that is my opinion.

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

You are correct. Religion is not imaginary. As a human-made institution, it clearly exists. Nor have I seen anyone say otherwise.

It's God that's imaginary and unverifiable.

You say "And that is my opinion." We've already seen what your opinion is worth. Your self-proclaimed "genius IQ" (for which we have your word) can only produce valid conclusions if it starts with accurate premises (IE, facts, not more of your own opinions), and need I point out yet again how absymal your track record has been in that regard? You should take cc1038's advice.

willnat
willnat

No, God is not imaginary. Just saying so will not make it so. However, if the egos of atheists could make it happen, it might be so!

I may claim a genius IQ, but the atheists here strut around like they do too.

Wow--- claiming my track record is absymal is SUCH an argument! Talk about only having only your own opinion.

Joseph_B_Starck
Joseph_B_Starck

Ineffable matter exists
God is ineffable matter
God exists

and, merely as some kind of aside:

The answer my friend is blowin' in the wind
The flag is blowin' in the wind
The flag is the answer

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

To JBStarck (below): "Ineffable matter exists"? Where?
"God is ineffable matter"? How could you possibly know? Have you looked up the definition of "Ineffable"?
"God exists". Not even a logically valid conclusion, given the premises. Follow the parallel structure here to see why:

Mammals exist.
Unicorns are a type of mammal.
Therefore unicorns exist.

More generally:
X exists.
Y is a subset of X.
Therefore Y exists.

Of course, quite independent of whether it's a VALID conclusion is whether it's a TRUE conclusion, and that WOULD have depended on the veracity of the premises if you were capable of constructing a valid syllogism, but, in the absence of such, we need not even approach your utter failure to do so.

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

To WillNat (below): You've got it backward. Just saying God does exist doesn't make it so. The default starting assumption about anything (think leprechauns, telepathy, Zeus, or space aliens) is that they don't exist — certainly just not on somebody's unsupported say-so — unless and until you can produce some credible evidence that they do.

For example, Thomas Jefferson was a really bright guy, but he doubted that meteors existed, despite a couple of Yale professors telling him yes, they do. "I would rather believe two Yankee professors would lie, than that stones have fallen from the heavens." His skepticism was the proper attitude to take until the evidence was produced. Once it was, the issue was settled.

By contrast, despite thousands of years worth of opportunity, and millions of requests to see the evidence of God's existence, none has ever been forthcoming. Even blind people can tell when the Sun is out. If God really did exist, wouldn't it be even more obvious?

Joseph_B_Starck
Joseph_B_Starck

Your unicorn retort, RichardSRussell, does not syllogistically match mine. You claim to have discovered unicorns. You have a description. I do not claim to have discovered God. I have no description.

"The veracity of (my) premises" is this:

My use of "ineffable matter" is that which is undiscovered. Science is about the process of discovery, i.e., the history of science has two parts, that which is discovered and that which is undiscovered, both which are one and the same. What is discovered was once undiscovered. What is effable was once ineffable. Before it was discovered, it was undiscovered. Before it was effable it was ineffable. Ineffable matter exists because ineffable matter is half the history of science. To ask how I could possibly know that God is ineffable matter, RichardSRussell, is to ask how I could possibly know that half the history of science is about ineffable matter.

Therefore, there can be no better God proof stated than mine. Fact: I've defined the process of discovery and placed God in it without describing God.

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

To JB Starck (below):

You apparently don't understand the difference between the formal structure of a syllogism and the content of the assertions within it. Don't take my word for it, ask someone who DOES know.

The formal structure of your 3-line statement about ineffable matter exactly fits the format I've laid out in general form with Xes and Ys. So does the unicorn example. You are attempting to assert that the existence of a CATEGORY necessarily implies the existence of a certain kind of thing WITHIN the category (more formally that the existence of a set implies the existence of a particular element of that set). And that particular fallacy is usually disposed of in the first week of any college-level course in formal logic.

A more homely example:
  (1) I have a bag of Halloween candy.
  (2) A Hershey bar is a kind of Halloween candy.
  (3) Therefore I have a Hershey bar.
Maybe true, maybe not, in real life, but in no way demonstrated by this flawed attempt at a syllogism.

Again, don't take my word for it. Investigate it for yourself.

IowaMike
IowaMike

RichardSRussell,

And your proof that this is not God is......? See you are what you condemn a faith believer......ironic.

FiveHole
FiveHole

Thank you Bishop Morlino!!

willnat
willnat

Yes, thank you, Bishop. And may God bless you and give you the strength and courage to continue to protect your people from those individuals (some of whom are well-meaning) who seek to teach something other than the true faith of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Sardath
Sardath

Willnat asks: "Does anyone feel that it's weird that someone would suspect that supporters of the Church would be anti-woman?"

Well, let's see. What do the early Church Fathers have to say on this subject?

Tertullian, one of the most important of those early Fathers, wrote that every woman should always "walk about like Eve, mourning and repentant, so that by the garb of penitence she might more fully expiate what she derives from Eve: the shame of the first sin, and the odium of human perdition. ... Do you not know that you are each an Eve? The sentence of God on your sex lives on in our own time: the guilt must of necessity live on as well. You are the devil's gateway. You are the unsealer of the forbidden tree. You are the first deserter of the divine law. You are she who seduced Adam, whom the devil was not valiant enough to attack. You destroyed so easily God's image, man. And on account of what you deserve--that is, death--even the Son of God had to die."

Tertullian's influence on the early Church was huge. Cyprian of Carthage, whom Bishop Morlino likes to quote as an authority, referred to Tertullian as "the Master", and Cyprian was himself a huge influence on Augustine, whose theology pretty much created the Catholic Church as we know it today. And Augustine himself once wrote, "How sordid, filthy, and horrible is a woman's embrace!"

Anti-woman? Where would anyone ever get that idea?

willnat
willnat

You needed to go back 1800 years to get an example? Ha!

Sardath
Sardath

According to Bishop Morlino, the teaching of the Church never changes, so an example from 1800 years ago is just as good as an example from yesterday.

And in any case, one can find similar statements all through Catholic history; Tertullian is not unique by any means.

willnat
willnat

Teaching on faith and morals does not change. But scientific knowledge grows. Do you see the difference? Also, why don't you account for the changing meaning of words when you quote what someone said 1800 years ago?

Also, please differentiate between the teachings of the Church and the pronouncements of individuals.

IowaMike
IowaMike

Sardath,

You misunderstand what Bishop Morlino said. Catholic doctrine does not change but its practices do. Christ came to not to destroy the OT but to fulfill it. You might notice that blood sacrifices are no longer offered and many other practices were obsoleted with the coming of Christ.

Your condemnation of how the Church treats women has not basis in fact.

sarge
sarge

bronze age religion...you've already going back 2000 years...

willnat
willnat

"bronze age religion"

Another dis. Where did you get that? From atheist superstar Dawkins?

Robert James
Robert James

Uh, no. He got that from the facts. I mean, unless you're claiming your faith *doesn't* go back 2000 years?

IowaMike
IowaMike

Sardath,

Your rolling out 2nd century Tertullian to make your case that the Church is anit-women.....that is really funny LOL. Wow....what was the culture like in the 2nd Century? In the known world were women considered equal to men?

Now let's look at Catholic treatment of women......the Blessed Virgin Mary is the Mother of God...revered within the Church. Who was the first to learn that Christ was raised from the dead....Mary Magdalene....who stood at the foot of the cross....Mary Clopis, Mary Magdalene and the Blessed Virgin. Women in the Catholic Church have always played an essential role in the life of the Church and always will. There are many female Doctors of the Church, female saints etc. So once again you speak of something you know little about.

Within the Church we all have our specific roles......Christ founded the Church and set it's structure. Women cannot be priests....and men can't have babies....everybody needs to get over it and accept their roles.

Sardath
Sardath

What's "really funny" is that the same people who are always telling us that "the teaching of the Church never changes" then turn around and dismiss teachings of the Church as outdated whenever they become an embarrassment. "What was the culture like in the 2nd century?" Who cares? Your people are constantly telling us how the Church is not supposed to be like everyone else, not supposed to be conforming itself to the secular culture's false beliefs and corrupt moralities--and then when the Church gets caught saying or doing something which, by its own lights, it clearly should not be doing, you try to excuse it with the argument that it's not their fault because all the other kids were doing the same thing.

The Church's marching orders are supposed to come from holy scripture. And what does scripture say? "In Christ there is neither male nor female." In the first century there were indeed people who took that theological truth seriously, to the point where women were teaching and preaching and even being considered as "apostles" alongside the men. And then came the patriarchal counterattack, based not on the teachings or example of Jesus, but on the prejudices of the surrounding cultures. It was only then that women were "put in their place"--not because that is what the Christian faith requires, but because that is what was most convenient for the emerging ecclesiastical hierarchies.

The fact that the Virgin Mary is revered within the Church proves nothing about the Church's attitude toward women in general; some of the most patriarchal and misogynistic cultures throughout history have revered female goddesses even as they treated flesh-and-blood women worse than cattle. Ditto for female Doctors and saints; a few token exceptions, often purchased at great cost to the exceptions themselves, do not change the overwhelming reality for everyone else.

Despite all your posturing about history and logic and everyone else's supposed shortcomings in those areas, it is pretty clear from the things you have posted here that you yourself have a great deal to learn in those areas.

IowaMike
IowaMike

Sardoth,

Stay away from Scripture because it is obvious you know little about it and understand less.

God has always presented himself in scripture as a male. As for the Church mistreating women...how exactly is that being done. What is the attitude that you decry....all you are doing is making empty accusations.

I'll be happy to answer any concerns you have about the treatment of the women by the Church. Do you have any specifics?

Did you know that men can't have babies....does that mean that God discriminated against men? Men and women have different roles in life and in the Church....this is obvious to objective onlookers.

cc1038
cc1038

Willnat, you are equating morality with religiosity. None of what you say requires anything to do with the Catholic Church.
And since the underlying premise of the church (sky daddy, etc.) is based on myth and superstition, it is anything but logical.

willnat
willnat

It's your opinion that it is a myth. It's ONLY your opinion. Who, besides you, counts that as logical.

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

Me.

willnat
willnat

Okay, that's TWO of you. I have on my side one billion Catholics, half a billion other Christians, one billion Muslims and many others as well.

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

To WIllNat (below): It's only 2 of us who've posted here, which is double what you thot it was and 1 more than the number who've posted here supporting YOU.
 
However, since you apparently feel it's OK to just CLAIM that tons of other people support you, I can claim that, too. Go back over all the billions of people who've ever lived on Earth, and we outnumber you guys 100 to 1. See? Anybody can play your stupid, fatuous game.

If, however, you want to get away from unprovable claims and deal with the actual meaning of the word "myth", you don't conduct a public-opinion poll, you consult a dictionary. There are dozens of them out there, but the one below, from Yahoo, is as good as any. Scan it carefully to see where it says diddly-squat about "logic" being involved:

   http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/myth

myth (n.)
1. a. A traditional, typically ancient story dealing with supernatural beings, ancestors, or heroes that serves as a fundamental type in the worldview of a people, as by explaining aspects of the natural world or delineating the psychology, customs, or ideals of society
b. Such stories considered as a group
2. A popular belief or story that has become associated with a person, institution, or occurrence, especially one considered to illustrate a cultural ideal
3. A fiction or half-truth, especially one that forms part of an ideology
4. A fictitious story, person, or thing

IowaMike
IowaMike

Well I side with willnat...I think that counts.

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

To IowaMike (below): OK, now it's up to 2-2. The point remains that IT'S NOT UP TO US. The word "myth" has a common meaning in English — widely understood by English speakers around the globe — and logic has nothing to do with it.

cc1038
cc1038

We're all impressed with his "Religious Education". Perhaps he can now tell us how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

willnat
willnat

Ridicule in the right hands can be humorous; in the wrong hands it is merely mean-spirited.

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

OTOH, groveling sycophancy in anybody's knees is just pathetic.

willnat
willnat

I have a genius IQ and yet I willingly submit before MY Lord Jesus Christ. In your pride, you may call it groveling sycophancy. Seems I remember a religious story about another person who would not grovel before his maker.

IowaMike
IowaMike

RichardSRussell,

The only ones I've seen use sophistry, mockery, name-calling are the atheists. I've read Hutchins and Dawkins et al....you are just reading from their playbook yet they regularly have lost debates to people like Diesh D'Souza. Interesting that you can't debate without using these 'atheist' tools.

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

To IowaMIke (below): Who says they lost? You? Ha!

Of course I use atheist tools: facts and reason. Why would I not?

And what's the alternative? Whatever cockamamie tools you use? Look where that's gotten YOU. No, thanks.

IowaMike
IowaMike

cc1038,

More than you can count.:)

cc1038
cc1038

"The Catholic Church evolves where it is logical": this is one of the funniest things yet posted. The Church may be many things but logical it ain't.

RichardSRussell: well argued as always. Thank you.

willnat
willnat

Strange, how you left off the rest of my post, which gave an example of this logic:

"For example, when science confirmed beyond doubt that the human fetus was a separate, developing person, the Church called its destruction murder. It's ironic that non-believing anti-Catholics today unscientifically call the unborn child a 'blob of tissue.'"

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

Strange how YOU ignored MY response that science has never confirmed any such thing. "Person" is a legal concept, not a scientific one. You don't know what you're talking about.

willnat
willnat

Okay, then instead of the word "person", I'll say "separate individual with his or her own unique DNA."

Satisfied. BTW, it's you who do not know what you are talking about or else you are merely mincing words to confuse the issue.

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

To WillNat (below): No, not satisfied. My point was that your CONCEPT was bunged up, not that you'd applied the wrong word or phrase to it. Science makes no statements about legality or morality, only about observable reality — what IS, not what SHOULD be — and if you think that science has EVER had anything to say about murder or personhood, you should cite your SCIENTIFIC sources instead of just repeating another of your own opinions, which continue to pile up an abysmal track record of inaccuracy and untrustworthiness.

IowaMike
IowaMike

RichardSRussell,

Are you denying the undeniable? Medical science has concluded that human life begins at conception, the instant that a male sperm unites with a female Oocyte a Zygote is formed. The Zygote is a human embryo by any measure. So if people like you want to argue that a human embryo that has a unique DNA from its parents is not a person....what is it then? Let me help here.....a pregnant bear gives birth to little bears......a human person gives birth to...????

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

To IowaMike (below):

A little thot experiment for ya, Mike. A woman produces an ovum. Is it human? Does it have human DNA? Is it alive? A man produces a sperm cell. Is it human? Does it have human DNA? Is it alive?

I would answer "yes" to all these questions. How about you?

IowaMike
IowaMike

RichardSRussell,

What are you talking about? Cells are part of the human genome as is DNA. You cannot be that ignorant of basic biology. All cells are part of the person male or female. But only when a sperm cell (male) unites with a Oocyte (female) does conception occur and a new human created with a separate and distinct DNA, from this instant it is a human fetus.

Yes, DNA is part of the human gemome is definately alive!

willnat
willnat

The Catholic Church and its teachings are LOGICAL to those people who want to do good to their fellow human beings.

It does NOT appear logical to those who do not want to be told that it is wrong to kill their unborn children.

It does not appear logical to third world, wealthy landholders who force their workers to live in poverty.

wisclev
wisclev

Since Morlino was appointed bishop, the number of seminarians in the Madison diocese has skyrocketed and the diocese is producing some of the most impressive and holiest young priests in the country. Many young women have been inspired to enter the religious life as well under our bishop's leadership. The bishop is simply defending the 2000 year teaching of the Church and people are responding. No doubt his love of truth will turn many people away, especially those in Madison obsessed with politics and who wrongly see everything as politcal. But it may be premature to assume the Church will fade into irrelevancy under such leadership.

willnat
willnat

Bishop Morlino in incredibly well-educated. Maybe that's why the extremists hate him.

Bachelor's degree in Philosophy from Fordham University, a master's degree in Philosophy from the University of Notre Dame, the Master of Divinity Degree from the Weston School of Theology in Cambridge, Mass., and a doctorate in Moral Theology from the Gregorian University in Rome, with specialization in fundamental moral theology and bioethics.

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

As Richard Dawkins, a REAL scientist, has observed, theology (moral or otherwise) doesn't deserve to be called an academic discipline at all.
 
Nor was he the first to make this observation. For example:

 • "Theology is but the ignorance of natural causes reduced to a system.... [It] has for its object only things incomprehensible. Contrary to all other sciences, it treats only of what cannot fall under our senses. Hobbes calls it 'the kingdom of darkness'. It is a country in which everything is generated by laws contrary to those which men can recognize in the world they inhabit. In this marvellous region, light is no more than darkness; evidence is doubtful or false; impossibilities are credible; reason is a deceitful guide; and good sense becomes madness. This science is called theology, and this theology is a continual insult to the reason of man...." —Baron D'Holbach (1723-1789)
 
 • "Wandering in a vast forest at night, I have only a faint light to guide me. A stranger appears and says to me: 'My friend, you should blow out your candle in order to find your way more clearly.' This stranger is a theologian." —Denis Diderot (1713-1784), French encyclopedist and philosopher

willnat
willnat

Wow! You seek to discrete the whole academic discipline of theology using a pop culture atheist writer, AKA Dawkins! That's courageous. Ha Ha!

twentysomething
twentysomething

Richard Dawkins, a REAL scientist?! Did not the Catholic Church actually discover the scientific method? And Georges Laitre develop the Big Bang Theory? And a priest, Fr. Nicholas Steno, was himself the father of geology? And Copernicus develop the heliocentric method? Western science owes a large debt of gratitude to the Catholic church my friend. Don't think your atheistic scientists are the only ones who know a thing or two about science. Feel free to look into modern day Fr. Robert Spitzer, who debates atheistic Stephen Hawking on the existence of the universe being proof for God's existence. Any well-informed researcher looks into both sides, my friend.

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

For those who choose to sneer at Richard Dawkins's academic credentials, revealing right here in public not only their ignorance but the fact that they're too lazy to google it for themselves, here's yer link:
   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Dawkins

IowaMike
IowaMike

RichardSRussell

He couldn't prove there was no God either. He avoids debates with people who he knows will take his beliefs to the ground as did Dinesh D'Souza. So your all knowing, scientific genius is, in the end, just another atheist who can't prove what they believe....He is a faith believer just like you....

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

Is anybody else kind of creeped out by the perverted glee with which some of the posters on this board seem to be salivating over the prospect of "disciplining" these women?

GrumpyOldMan
GrumpyOldMan

Project much?

willnat
willnat

I can assure you that I, for one, would feel just as strongly about "disciplining" men who were leading the faithful astray.

Now, let me ask: Does anyone feel that it's weird that someone would suspect that supporters of the Church would be anti-woman? Maybe someone who in the last US election accused the Republican party of being at "War with Women" because many GOP leaders didn't like equating women's rights with killing unborn children.

IowaMike
IowaMike

RichardSRussell,

Glee.....yes I am very happy about what the Bishop has done. I wish he would have done so long long ago. If these nuns don't want to believe in Catholic doctrine they should take the train but teaching false doctrine under the Catholic Church banner just ain't acceptable.

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

As an aid to understanding, any time you run across the phrase "God says ...", you should substitute "People whose livelihood completely depends on your total and unquestioning credulity CLAIM that God says ...".

willnat
willnat

Or anytime you run across the phrase, "The invisible wizard in the sky," substitute "People who not intelligent to be able to understand that there are things greater than themselves, can't imagine God and find satisfaction in ridiculing the Faith of good-hearted religious people."

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

OK, let me try it. "Any time you feel lost and alone and don't know where to turn, just get down on your knees and pray to People who not intelligent to be able to understand that there are things greater than themselves, can't imagine God and find satisfaction in ridiculing the Faith of good-hearted religious people."

Hmm, doesn't seem to flow real well.

willnat
willnat

But it's the first really funny thing you've said. See, there is hope for atheists if they try humor.

scorp
scorp

The pagans are out in droves looking to sacrifice the good Bishop in their outlandish fantasies .The numerous "fallen away catholics" who pray to themselves because they can "think" and don't need guidence appear to have an irresistable need to justify their lack of belief . No problem ,just don't call yourself Catholic. The Bishop will do his duty of preserving the faith for the believers , the remaining are of no consequence anyway. The attempt to smear the clergy with guilt by association results on the "logical " conclusion that all teachers are perverts because many have been convicted of sexual assault of students. The uneducated are easily misled by such false "logic" , therefore , leave the misrepresentations for the politicians.

willnat
willnat

Well said. If someone repeats something illogical often enough, many will believe it. (Especially, it seems, if the "many" are made up of average US voters)

JakobiRobi
JakobiRobi

Do you know that even proven child-raping priests are not banned from preaching? They're just moved to new districts, with new batches of children to "teach." These women certainly didn't harm any children, and they're banned from preaching? You people need to get your priorities straight. Quit bowing to the king from Italy.

willnat
willnat

"king from Italy"

That's your way of dissing the Pope, who is the direct successor of St. Peter who was named as head of the Church by Christ Himself when he was personally present on this earth. Much more than a mere king the Pope is!

Sardath
Sardath

Scorp (and others in these forums) keep referring to Bishop Morlino as "the good Bishop".

Read Mark 10:17-18:

"And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him, and asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone."

If even Jesus didn't want people to call him "good" because that title belongs to God alone, by what right do you describe Bishop Morlino (or any other bishop) as "the good bishop"?

Unless, of course, you consider Bishop Morlino to be God. That would explain a few things.

IowaMike
IowaMike

Sardath,

What does this citation, take totally out of context, have to do with the price of eggs? Christ also said, "Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven."

Bishop Morlino is upholding the teachings of the Church against heretical nuns who want to run around teaching new ageism, indifferentism, polytheism etc. He is gooooooood!

Sardath
Sardath

Please explain why you think my citation is "out of context".

Please explain what your quotation has to do with the issue at hand.

Please explain how you know that the nuns in question are "heretical".

Galileo Galilei
Galileo Galilei

Scorp, you seem to miss the point when you whine about the clergy being smeared by association. The problem is that Morlino (and Del, Grumpy, etc.) would like us to believe that bishops have some special insight into truth and accordingly greater moral standing than us mere mortals. How then, could so many bishops have participated in the great abuse cover up? It is really hard to sit in the pew and put up with this crap and I wouldn't if it weren't for the fact that most, yes MOST, regular Catholics don't believe in this foolishness and still band together to help the least among us.

scorp
scorp

Just pointing out the fallacies perpetuated by the many haters. The bishops do have special insights into the truth of the catholic doctrine and its application to society because they are not only highly educated in that area ,but they also have substantial experience .As mortals ,some do fail their duties and obligations ,fortunately , this Bishop is not one of them. Obviously you should not be sitting in that pew "putting up with that crap" , please leave and surrender that pew to real Catholics. Go with your friends to a coffee shop.

JakobiRobi
JakobiRobi

More reason to doubt the hierarchy of the church. It bugs me how much sway some wanna-be king on a throne in Italy has over people in America, not to mention his lieutenants, a.k.a. bishops. These nuns do more work for the poor, sick, and needy in a month than these bishops do in a year, if not more than a year. The Vatican and their bishops, throughout history, have done way more to keep people down than to help them. Also, um, pedophilia. You know, the topic no-one likes bringing up. How about the Vatican focuses on that VERY REAL PROBLEM, within their ranks no less, before condemning nuns for saying no religion is superior to another, homosexuals are our friends and neighbors, and women should be allowed to become preachers. Yea, lets punish THOSE WOMEN, before punishing the child-rapists. Well done, Vatican. Well done, bishops. You just made yourselves even less relevant. Now, please, just go away forever, so our nuns can get some work done.

willnat
willnat

You say, "pedophilia. You know, the topic no-one likes bringing up."

Yeah, except every liberal on this message board! So they can, as one commenter said, cause guilt by association.

JakobiRobi
JakobiRobi

Keep your head deep in the sand. Yea, screw those innocent children, right? We need to protect these preachers and their desires, whatever those desires may be. Say, you got any children, willnat? Oh you don't! How convenient.

willnat
willnat

The Catholic Church teaches and always has taught that the sexual abuse of children is a sin deserving of eternal punishment in Hell. Can you understand that? The priests who were abusers fall under that condemnation just as much as lay people. Can you understand that or is your anti-Catholic bias clouding your view?

IowaMike
IowaMike

JakobiRobi,

I've got plenty of children......what is your point. The Child abuse problem for the U.S. Catholic Church is in the rear view mirror...over...done. Why don't you do a little research before embarrassing yourself further.

twentysomething
twentysomething

"Well done, bishops. You just made yourselves even less relevant. Now, please, just go away forever, so our nuns can get some work done."

Jakobi, that's a pretty sad, uninformed statement. If there were no bishops there would be no one to ordain priests. No priests means, as wilnat mentioned earlier, no Eucharist, and no Eucharist no Church. Plain and simple. On top of that, there would be no nuns, or religious sisters, because they would have no authority from which to take their perpetual vows of poverty, chastity and *obedience* (note that last one). Sure, you don't like the bishops being here, but then don't expect the sisters to stick around and carry out their work either--they would virtually not exist.

IowaMike
IowaMike

JakobiRobi,

Wakey wakey....the child abuse problem in the U.S. is over, done, kaput. Has been for years.....read the studies and reports.

As for these nuns....nobody is saying these nuns haven't done good social justice work because they have....BUT THAT IS NOT WHY THEY ARE BEING PUNISHED! Sorry, didn't mean to yell. They are being punished because they have abandoned the teachings of the Church on abortion, contraception, etc. etc. etc.

Time for them to come back to the faith or get out.

Norwood44
Norwood44

Iowa Mike, Though you long so desperately to wipe the pedophile slate clean, the pesky legacy of it remains for the victims and Church managers, many of whom were on watch when it was occurring in one parish after another all over America, Ireland and elsewhere. It won't go away no matter how many studies claim that the Church is finally doing what it should have done for decades and didn't. It would be sad if you were just naive, but your rhetoric bespeaks complicity. Oh. Here is a story from Milwaukee just this week.
So much for penance.
http://www.wrn.com/2012/12/judge-rules-milwaukee-archdiocese-funds-protected/

willnat
willnat

What about the coaches at Penn State? Does that cause you to mention child abuse every time you refer to a college or sports team?

I think when someone brings up the Dallas Cowboys or the NY Giants, I'll mention the Penn State scandal and expect everyone to hate sports!

sarge
sarge

willnat...in one case we are talking about a isolated occurence as far as we know, in the other a pattern so well known it's the frequent topic of 100 year old lymricks not to mention literally hundreds of court cases

willnat
willnat

There are only a few dozen major college football teams. There are millions of Catholic priests. From a statistical standpoint the percentages are probably pretty close.

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

WillNat, thank you for finally posting something quantifiable, so everyone else here can verify for themselves just how far out of touch with reality you are.

The actual number of major-college football programs, which you characterize as "a few dozen", can be found here:
   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NCAA_Division_I_FBS_football_programs

The actual number of priests, which you characterize as "millions" and growing, can be found here:
   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priest_shortage_in_the_Roman_Catholic_Church

Any percentages you THINK you derived from your wildly inaccurate guesses about the denominators are equally worthless. However, to reiterate, the numerator for the ratio of pedophiles to college football programs, over the last half century, continues to be 1.

IowaMike
IowaMike

sarge,

Isolated case my foot.....check the child abuse statistics for the Public School System.........150 - 200 times the rate of the Catholic Church at its peak.

sarge
sarge

My guess that a piece of work like morlino is more concerned with nuns teaching peace and social justice than the nuns teaching that some other religions or sects of christianity might be valid-it is pointed out that vatican2 says as much.

this guy is a authoritarian who appears to has much in common with the right wing catholic clergy in chile, argentina in the 1970's, spain in the 1930's and germany in the 30's and 40's.It's no surprise at all that he is involved with the former SOTA.

on another subject..I would say; looking at his corpulence,that I would doubt he's much for mortification much less a wearer of the cilice

IowaMike
IowaMike

sarge

This is awesome....you don't even have a grasp of why the nuns are being disciplined, lol. Get some facts....they are not being disciplined for their social justice work but because they have renounced many doctrines of the Church.

Why don't we start talking about your atheist brothers like Hitler, Mussolini, Pol Pot, Lenin, Chairman Mao, ToJo etc. who have killed and estimated 150,000,000 people.....I mean....wow!

sarge
sarge

"It's not surprising that Madison Bishop Robert Morlino is just livid about news accounts tying Pope Benedict XVI to the protection of pedophile priests in Wisconsin and elsewhere, accounts that have shocked the conscience of people throughout the world. What's surprising is what Morlino is livid about: not the decades of abuse and cover-ups, all done under the nose of church officials including Pope Benedict, but the fact that this is getting renewed attention."

IowaMike
IowaMike

sarge,

Renewed attention my foot. You need to research the lawyers who have tried and failed to bring this matter to Pope Benedict. Their legal logic is laughable and they were, rightfully, laughed out of court.

Bishop Morlino is right to defend the pope against false and salacious attacks.

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

The NFL and the Big Ten did not systematically cover up the actions of the one guy — Jerry Sandusky — at the one college — Penn State. The whole Catholic hierarchy systematically participated in the cover-up of hundreds and hundreds of cases of child molestation extending over decades. Then they try to claim "moral authority" over others. It's that holier-than-thou hypocrisy that keeps bringing the subject back up.

IowaMike
IowaMike

RichardSRussell,

All of the hierarchy covered up the child abuse.......baloney, hyperbole, baseless.

The U.S. Catholic Church is the only institution of it's size that has opened itself to outside scrutiny in the way the Church did. It is clear that you have not read the John Jay College of Criminal Justice reports and follow on studies, 'The Causes and Context of Sexual Abuse of Minors by Catholic Priests, 1950-2010' or any of the confirmation reports or follow up reports else you would not be so factually wrong.

Between 1950 and 2010 there were about 110,000 Catholic priests in active ministry. During this period about 11,500 cases of child abuse were reported and about 4,500 priests identified as abusers. Now you run the numbers, thats about 4% of the priests.

For you to say that ALL the heirarchy was hiding these evil priests is pure nonesense. For you to say that the Church has lost all moral authority for a problem that has been found and fixed and made public is sophistry.

In making these kind of salacious comments you simply expose you atheistic bias in an effort to avoid defending your own indefensible beliefs.

IowaMike
IowaMike

Norwood44,

You obviously are cherry picking. I never said there would be zero child abuse incidents in the Church but I stand behind the statistics that say it is over and the abuse rate within the Catholic Church is a fraction of that in society. Why don't you look at the Public School System where about 10% of the 50,000,000 kids have reported abuse. Let's to some numbers....10% X 50,000,000 is 5,000,000 kids who have been abused. Between 1950 and 2010 there were about 11,500 kids who were abused. Since the late 1990s that number has fallen to near zero.

Why don't you get on your horse and go after the abusive teachers? You know why there ain't no stinkin' law suits against the public school system? 'Cause it is nearly impossible to sue the PSS and there ain't no money in it.

Your blind hatred for the Church is blinding you to the facts.

Norwood44
Norwood44

Grumpy longs for the days when women folk and the gays and others did as they were told and the world had strict order and a white male rule that was clear and unbreakable lest you suffer the fires of hell. Never mind that those who reigned those days supported a clandestine network of child rape enabled by the religious collar they wore. These men publicly rejected homosexuality as immoral while a large percentage of them were themselves gay, with all the sel-loathing conflicth that created. Ah, the good old days, when the Church assumed a moral high ground it did not deserve, and longs to return to this very day by intimidating those who actually get it right. Your world is gone Grumpy, along with Saint Christopher, and three hours of fasting, never to return.

GrumpyOldMan
GrumpyOldMan

Please elucidate for us how these heretical nuns "get it right". What I wish for is quite irrelevant. Spare us your evil white man outrage.

willnat
willnat

"white" males?

Are you a racist?

IowaMike
IowaMike

Norwood,

Whispering.....the Catholic Church still teaches that homosexual relationships are intrinsically evil.......shhhhh....so is abortion, euthanasia, contraception, cloning and on and on.

So Norwood....get some facts because you are arguing as a bigot.

persia
persia

Bishop Morlino is building a bridge to the 11th Century!

willnat
willnat

No, he's building a bridge to the FIRST century . . . when Jesus Christ entrusted his Church to his apostles and gave them the authority to lead His people. When He told them: "I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

Norby
Norby

You realize that your quote is from the new testament bible that was codified by bishops about a thousand years after Christ's death. Nice for them, but not so positive that was god's word or intent.

GrumpyOldMan
GrumpyOldMan

The New Testament canon was determined in the fourth century based on five principles, one of which was whether or not it was authentic.

willnat
willnat

1000 years? Absurd!

The Early Church fathers in the first two centuries AD used the four Gospels. Don't you know that? Maybe you should reevaluate your beliefs and determine what other misinformation you have picked up from anti-Christian sources.

GrumpyOldMan
GrumpyOldMan

To add to willnat, one of the other principles was whether or not it was actually used. The canon developed in the fourth century was from readings used in the early church.

twentysomething
twentysomething

Well said, Willnat!

cc1038
cc1038

Atheists do not "accept the non-existence of god on the basis of faith" but rather on the lack of ANY evidence to the contrary.

willnat
willnat

That's the answer a field mouse might give if he could talk. Humans are capable of believing there is more to the world than they can see, hear and smell.

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

Oh, clearly, they're capable of it, but are they justified in doing so? The point CC is making is that they don't think faith is a very good way to arrive at conclusions. In fact, that grossly understates the case. Faith is the absolute worst ever method of arriving at conclusions. Nobody ever uses it for anything important, nor does anyone ever cite faith as a justification for a belief if any better method would lead you to the same conclusion. Who ever looks out the window, sees rain falling, and says "I have faith that I need an umbrella?" No, you cite the evidence. When it comes to God, there is none, which is why churches are forced to speak so highly of faith, because without it they got nothin'.

IowaMike
IowaMike

RichardSRussell,

I await your evidence that there is no God........don't have it....ahhhh back to the beginning. Don't you see the irony in making that argument without being able to prove there is no God?

Amusing.

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

To IowaMike (below):

OK, Mike, here's evidence in terms that may resonate more with you than appeals to the way logic and evidentiary proof work. It is claimed by God's most loyal devotees that he will enter your heart and make himself known to you if you just ask sincerely for him to do so. I tried. Nada. There's MY evidence.
 
Now, to get back to the way REAL evidence REALLY works, where's yours?

IowaMike
IowaMike

RichardSRussell,

Nice try....I don't believe it for a minute. Besides if you want something you've got to make a better effort than what you described which is just floating an excuse hoping people will accept it....I don't. :)

Norby
Norby

God gave us a brain as well as faith, and expects us to use both.

IowaMike
IowaMike

cc1038,

Hahahahaha....I love your circular logic. I am a Catholic and I believe in the existence of God on the basis of "faith" because there is no evidence to the contrary.

Back to the beginning huh...but that is good.

spotty
spotty

Spotty: The Dictator has spoken

onwisconsin1
onwisconsin1

I don't think anyone has told the Bishop that political season ended a month ago.

willnat
willnat

It's only political in the sense that Christ told his followers to obey God's commands is political.

Whazzat
Whazzat

Coinneach - I like your perspective. With fewer and fewer people believing in a bogeyman it's only a matter of time before churches start to shutter the windows and doors.. I'm hoping it happens sooner than later - I've got my eye on a catholic church that I'd like to turn into a senior housing development.

willnat
willnat

That's what the communists in Soviet Russia said. And now, 75 years later, the Russian Orthodox church is flourishing and there's not a single statue left in the country of church-hating Joseph Stalin.

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

And, of course, the Russian Orthodox Church is more convinced than anyone that the apostates in the Roman Catholic Church are guilty of the worst heresy of all — misrepresenting themselves as God's true representatives on Earth, when any fool can plainly see that it's the Orthodox who represent a direct lineal descent of authority from Saint Peter. So there you have it: WillNat endorsing the TRUE church, which all you Catholics should immediately flee to.

willnat
willnat

No, the Orthodox Churches (Russian, Greek, etc) are closer to uniting with the Catholic Church than at any time in recent history. How come you don't know that?

Just about the only major difference is obedience to the Pope. The Sacraments, the teachings, etc. are almost the same.

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

So, WIllNat, since you see no substantive difference between the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church, you'd have no trouble at all advising people to leave either for the other, right? Eastern Orthodox JUST AS GOOD as Catholic, that's what you're saying?

mare2
mare2

I disagree with alot of Bishop Morlinos doings. We had a new church built in our town after the old was destroyed by fire. Along comes the bishop...AFTER...the church was done and demanded that we have kneelers installed. We did not have them in the old church..thay had long before been removed. Alot of old people can't kneel and also people who have joints replaced..etc...but he demands they be put into the finished church. A very expensive unnecessary thing. Thousands of unnecessary dollars. We could have put that money to charity for people who actually needed the money. But there was no swaying his way of thinking. The Catholic church can find the dumbest ways to spend the peoples money. It is the only way to get their attention is to hold back on the money.. I do pay what is expected but I don't for one minute feel that it goes where it should. I agree he is a strong minded (a nice way to put it) person who is not interested in anybodys ideas but his own. I think that anybody that worships what they believe to be God is actually worshiping God. Call Him what you will He is still God. But the collection money must go into the one box for it to be the same in the eyes of the bishop. When I was a child we were told to say the prayers at Mass a different way..we learned it..Now we are told to say them differently..and we do it. A few years ago they asked we donate hymnals for Mass with all the different ways that were taught then. Now they are changing the wording again and are askng for new hymnals again to reflect the change. The old books aren't worn out and already there is changes. Why do we have to keep changing the wording of the prayers during the Mass. Good greif..leave it alone. But each time...new books are needed. What a waste of money...but then what would the bishop know of how the people have to scrape to pay their bills and give to the church besides. He doesn't worry about the grocery money or insurance or mortgage ...they just ask for more money from the congregations ...and they get it. My faith is being shaken more and more the older I get. I still believe the basics but the way that it things are being done just doesn't go along with the teaching of Jesus anymore. Its all been formulized to accomodate the hierarchy of the Church. I'm beginning to think they should just have a drive-up window where you go through with your car...throw in your money,..pick up a host and go home. They are only interested in the money that you put in there anyway and having a shortage of preists wouldn't matter then.
That way the priests wouldn't even be needed

tebriel
tebriel

It's too bad they don't crack down on child molesters instead.

GrumpyOldMan
GrumpyOldMan

Agree. Beyond horrible. While not really comparable at all, it doesn't excuse the nuns.

IowaMike
IowaMike

tebriel,

Time to wake up and smell the roses. The U.S. Catholic Church has done a complete purge of abusive priests. Try reading the John Jay School of Criminal Justice Report, "The Causes and Context of Child Abuse by Catholic Priests, 1950 - 2010". The abuse problem in the States is over, the Church has paid out billions in restitution. In fact the safest place for a Child today is in any Catholic institution.

Galileo Galilei
Galileo Galilei

How would we ever know, Mike?

IowaMike
IowaMike

Galileo Galilei,

I know because I fact check my stuff. :)

willnat
willnat

And now we find secular sporting organizations have covered up abuse. Where is the movement to investigate that?

mare2
mare2

Yes..paid out billions...and where did it come from.. You can bet that it wasn't from the money saved by the bishop flying on the airplane..in first class no less stated by another person earlier on here who said they saw him flyng first class. I have never in my life flown first class and I survived. I would fly regular fare and use that money saved for something other than my own comfort if I was a true Christian and was actually living my religeon.

willnat
willnat

The abuse scandal happened because the bishops were not tough enough on evil. Now, when this bishop toughens up, he's criticized by the liberals. You can't have it both ways!

Coinneach
Coinneach

Don't worry, when god-followers finally become a minority in the U.S., we non-theists will make sure you still have the freedom to practice your superstitious hokum. On the other hand, that tax-exempt status may need some reconsidering.

GrumpyOldMan
GrumpyOldMan

Agree with the idea that all churches should renounce their tax-exempt status...enables a cozy relationship with government.

willnat
willnat

I agree too ---- as long as the government subsidizes the non-religious activities in religious schools and hospitals. Otherwise, they might go out of business, leaving, for example, no more hospitals that don't kill unborn children. (Just what the liberal want, right?)

IowaMike
IowaMike

Coinneach,

When God-followers finally become a minority in the U.S......... that'll be the day! G. K. Chesterton said it best, "If there were no God, there would be no atheists".

What always amazes me is when an atheist (non-theist lol) who accept the non-existence of God on the basis of faith will spew invective at Christians who accept the existence of God on the basis of faith. The irony is sweet, too bad the it escapes you.........

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

G. K. had it wrong. To see why, just rephrase it like this: "If there were no unicorns, there'd be no people who doubted the existence of unicorns." IOW, if there were no unicorns, everyone would think there were. See how dumb that is? It's perfectly normal to not believe in something that doesn't exist.

For example, there is no God, but there are still atheists. That's because atheists are people who don't believe in God. If Chesterton had said "If there were no religionists, there'd be no atheists", he would have had it right. Atheists exist solely to counter the ignorant superstition of religious believers. If they'd go away, we would too, and gladly!

IowaMike
IowaMike

RichardSRussell,

Your attempt to change G.K.'s quotation is simply desperation or you simply can't understand what he said. Let me explain....if there were not God....then atheists would have nothing to complain about would they,

Why is it atheists spend so much crying about religious belief anyway. I don't spend any time trying to convince atheists that God exists. Why don't you go watch TV or something?

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

To IowaMike (below):

OK, Mike, I'll go real slow this time. Try to keep up.

There is no God. What we have is folk who THINK there is. That's why there are atheists.

(Sorry about that last word of >1 syllable; hope it didn't burn out your brain.)

AllAmerican11B
AllAmerican11B

RichardSRussell,
"There is no God. What we have is folk who THINK there is. That's why there are atheists."

That is your opinion and you are welcome to it.

I say...

There IS a God. What we have are folks who THINK there is not.

According to Richard, atheists do not believe God exists and atheists only exist because there are those that DO believe God exists; therefore, the only reason atheists exist is to oppose the beliefs of anyone that believe God exists. Why is it that atheists only exist to oppose my beliefs, it’s because atheists are bigots.

I believe God exists, I do not oppose anyone not believing God exists, it's their individual choice. Atheists routinely do everything they can to suppress the exercising of beliefs that they oppose, I do absolutely nothing to suppress their lack of belief or force them in any way to believe the way I do.

I think Richard is wrong, but this is a free country, free to believe in God or not, and free to be tolerant of others beliefs or not. Many atheists and believers make a choice to be intolerant of others beliefs, I choose otherwise. I do not see believers forcing atheists to display religious objects; I do see atheists across the country doing everything they can to strip the rights of believers to display religious objects.

I call it a Christmas tree; you can call it anything you like.

Honestly, who has the moral high ground here?

IowaMike
IowaMike

RichardSRussell,

Very desperate...once again you take up the atheist playbook....just claim there is no God...yet after repeated invitations you have yet to produce evidence to support your belief.

Amazing...do you think as slow as you type? :)

willnat
willnat

No, I don't think you'd like it if the tax exemptions were removed . . . because then there would be no more gagging of religious leaders. Then priests and ministers could tell their flocks the names of the politicians who favor abortion, euthanasia, etc. and who are anti-Christian.

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

Oh, bring it on! Let them voluntarily relinquish their tax exemptions so they don't feel "gagged". There's nothing to stop them from doing that right now, you know. Notice how many of them are begging for the opportunity? It's a nice, round number.

IowaMike
IowaMike

RichardSRussell,

Whether you like it or not Catholics and other faiths have the right to free speech. I know that kills you but there you go that pesky Constitution.

Did you know that the Catholic Church is in the top 5 charities in the world. What do you think stripping the Church of its tax exemption would do to the poor the Church serves. My you are cold-hearted.

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

To IowaMike (below):

You're saying the only reason that Catholic Church engages in charity is because they get a tax exemption for it, and without the tax exemption they'd stop doing it? And you think I'm cold-hearted?

IowaMike
IowaMike

RichardSRussell,

It's apparent that economics is another subject you know nothing about.....even a 5th grader could assess the impact of removing the tax exemption of charitable organizations. What a lame answer.

GrumpyOldMan
GrumpyOldMan

What this hullabaloo boils down to is that many like their Catholicism to be of the feel-good happy-happy-joy-joy type where if it feels good it must be good. And, if it isn't, well, I'll just twist it and turn it a bit so it conforms to my ideal, yet I'll remain Catholic...just my version of it. Unfortunately, there has been a lot of this nonsense in the Church since Vatican II. Fortunately, Pope Benedict (and bishops like Bishop Morlino) are beginning what will be a long clean-up (if it's ever completed). If you can't follow the rules, go to another church, or try to convince the Church otherwise. Openly flouting the law will get you the boot.

Galileo Galilei
Galileo Galilei

If "Openly flouting the law will get you the boot" explain the concept of hiding and protecting pedophile priests instead of giving them the boot? Their behavior is far worse than anything these nuns have done.

GrumpyOldMan
GrumpyOldMan

Agree. They should have gotten the boot and then some. But that doesn't excuse the nuns.

IowaMike
IowaMike

I'll just use a secular argument. Say you belong to a political party organization. Your job is to communicate with the public as to the merits of the party, promote its candidates, raise money, recruit workers and organize political events. How long do you think you would last if you publicly condemned the parties platform, said the candidate from the opposing party was just as good as your candidate and did so at fundraising and recruiting events? Hmmmm? Well that is exactly what these nuns are doing...they are violating the rules and are being called out for it....rightfully called out. The difference is they are leading other Catholics down the path to destruction by supporting abortion etc. Very sad any Catholic would accept and defend what these errant nuns preach.

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

IowaMike, I do belong to a political party organization, and I call it out all the time when it wages stupid wars or remains mute while our government spies on its own citizens. The difference — in case you hadn't noticed — is that political parties are democracies, and we rank-and-filers feel perfectly free to speak up with our own independent opinions, because that's the way we're organized. The Catholic Church is famously anything but democratic. It's a top-down dictatorship.
 
So I think you need to look for a better analogy.

IowaMike
IowaMike

RichardSRussell,

I'm surprised that you belong to a political party.....why. If this is all there is...no afterlife....no nothing, what do you care about war? Since there is no penalty eternal penalty for anything you do...why not rob, murder, rape and oppress...oh, I know - atheists already do this.

Once again your logic is totally flawed. Try remaining a liberal democrat and object to abortion at party functions....be sure to wear padding so when you hit the bricks it won't hurt so much.

Like Democrats and Republicans....membership is options...samo samo in the CC.

Got any other arguments?

IowaMike
IowaMike

Read my reply to tebriel....you two need to catch up with the times.

GrumpyOldMan
GrumpyOldMan

Got it, thanks.

willnat
willnat

Just because you point out a greater wrong, it does not justify the lesser one.

Galileo Galilei
Galileo Galilei

The point is not what you are arguing willnat. Rather, I was pointing out that Grumpy's assertion that flouting the law gets you the boot. It clearly does not.

IowaMike
IowaMike

Grumpy Old Man,

Your not old, just wise!

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

You 2 need to get a room.

Galileo Galilei
Galileo Galilei

The autocratic, smarter than the rest of us, zero tolerance for open thought Bishop strikes again. Sadly, the Church is dying in the US in large part because of its failure to open its mind and heart to people who disagree. The average age of a priest in the US is 63. Soon there will be no priests and perhaps the true promise of Vatican II will come true. The laity will have to keep the church alive here.

GrumpyOldMan
GrumpyOldMan

The Church is dying because of Vatican II. It is finally realizing it needs to start fighting.

Galileo Galilei
Galileo Galilei

Grumpy, that is pure fantasy. They church will die if the right wing march that John Paul started and guys like Morlino continue to pursue persists.

The idea that all the church needs to survive is more authoritarian, misogynistic exclusionary rulers and a bunch of unthinking, obedient followers is a recipe for disaster.

There is so much to love and celebrate about being Catholic, but blind obedience to a bunch of old men who can't even treat the most innocent of their followers with respect and dignity is not to be loved. It is to be fought until change finally happens.

GrumpyOldMan
GrumpyOldMan

The Church has been dying for fifty years. Finally someone showed up to do something about it.

IowaMike
IowaMike

Galileo Galilei,

Grumpy is right. Since Vatican II progressive Catholics and relativists have held sway but that is finally changing. Try comparing the statistics in the 50's to those of today. You will find that the Church has fallen apart.....today <30%believe in the Real Presence, <25% attend weekly mass, few go to confession, most accept homosexual marriage, contraception, abortion, euthanasia etc. Following VII Churches were gutted, alters thrown out for tables, communion rails removed, confession boxes removed, statues tossed out, tabernacle relocated to a side chapel, verses populum imposed, communion in the hand, choir moved to the sacristy, bad music, irreverent liturgies (clown masses, dancing etc.). If you look at the same stats from the 50's the reverse was true e.g. mass attendance >70%, belief in the real presence >75%.

Vatican II did not require any of the above to be done....VII did not require that Latin be excluded from the mass....VII did not require that the priest face the people, VII only opened the door to liberals who insalled all manner of junk practices and now that the pendelum is swinging back....the libs are howling but they can't stop it....it's happening. As Pope Benedict recently said, If you can't accept Catholic beliefs it would be better if you left the Church.

Sage advice I think.

twentysomething
twentysomething

Galileo, is the only current knowledge you have of the universal Catholic Church what you read in today's headlines and in the State Journal? The Church stretches far beyond this diocese, and believe it or not, there are a lot of priests and bishops out there making tough decisions to keep their followers on track with the Church Christ originally founded in 33 AD--it isn't just Morlino.

Also, if you really think the Church is dying you should do a little research. Take a look at the blossoming religious orders (the Dominicans of Mary in Ann Arbor, MI for example, or the Sisters of Life in the Bronx), the overflowing seminaries throughout the nation, and the work that FOCUS (www.focus.org) is doing on college campuses. Clearly young people who think for themselves are thinking that being strong in their Catholic faith isn't such a bad idea. So just because you want to think that the Church is dying, I happily inform you that the Church, my friend, is a sleeping giant who is just starting to wake up. Although many have been confused as to what she teaches over the past 50 years post Vatican II, She is currently in the process of growing her members stronger in the Truth so that they can be sure to spread no more false or half-gospels.

IowaMike
IowaMike

Galileo Galilei,

You are flat wrong. From you comment I concluded that you must not be Catholic else you would not say that the Church is dying in the U. S. because of its failure to open its mind and heart to people who disagree. Here is 'chapter and verse'. Catholic doctrine (Scripture, Infallible papal pronouncements, Apostolic Tradition (T) and the constant teaching of the universal Magesterium) was given to the Church by God. It is truth. Truth does not change, it is immutable and is not subject to a vote.

With respect to priests....worldwide numbers have been on the increase since 2009. In the U. S. the more conservative seminaries are full and it won't be too long before we see an increase here.

Let me remind you that .... no priests mean no Eucharist and no Eucharist means no Church. The laity is not the Church and cannot keep it alive without the ministerial priesthood.

Galileo Galilei
Galileo Galilei

That you would even write "The laity is not the Church" speaks volumes. Ordain women and married people and your Eucharist problem is solved. And while we are talking about the Eucharist, why does Morlino feel only special people should partake of the Precious Blood? Seems to me Jesus said (Oh yeah, we hear this every Sunday during the consecration) "Take this and drink of it, all of you, for this is my blood." Did He mean all of you priests but nobody else?

The number of kids in seminary don't come close to the numbers needed to avoid the looming "Clergy cliff." Read the Georgetown report released this summer. Beyond a lack of priests, there is a financial problem ahead taking care of them in retirement.

Mike, you are like so many posters here who believe that I and others couldn't possibly be Catholic because we don't subscribe to your world view.

IowaMike
IowaMike

Galileo Galilei,

The Church and its structure was designed and implemented by God....not by the laity. The laity are members of the Church.....there are faithful members of the laity that accept the teachings of the Church and members who do not. If you don't accept all doctrine whether from Scripture, papal infallible pronouncements, Apostolic Tradition (T) or the constant teaching of the ordinary and universal Magesterium....then you reject God's Church and His teachings.
Try going Vatican I (the last doctrinal counsel) declarations...Session 3, Chapter 3, On Faith, Paragraph 8 and it will lay it out for you.

I don't think you Catholic because you don't accept the teachings of the Church, I could care less of you world view. I'm betting you think homosexual marriage, abortion, contraception, divorce and remarriage, euthanasia etc. are all just dandy.

Like so many Catholics you think Church teaching should conform to pop-culture...ain't so.

Don't you worry about the survival of the Church because Christ himself told us He would be with us until the end of time.

willnat
willnat

The Church has said that one receives Jesus in the Eucharist fully even if they only receive the host. It's rather awkward to give everyone in a crowded church a sip of the wine. Why do you care? Millions of unborn children are killed every year through abortion and some Catholics are more concerned about such a non-issue?

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

IowaMike, you do realize that your heartthrob, GrumpyOldMan, was the source of the line about the Catholic Church dying, right?

IowaMike
IowaMike

RichardSRussell,

It doesn't change my answer what-so-ever.

Robert James
Robert James

To the good Sisters in question: I certainly hope that this ban imposed on you by the duly constituted authority of the institution of the Church will serve as your wake-up call. Let this be clear: your work is not appreciated as much as your unquestioning obedience, and your initiative is not appreciated at all.

I will remind you that while your labors on behalf of your faith are admirable, your support for the Church is distinctly less wise. Your brother religious (priests, etc) do not have to find paying work to support themselves and the hundreds of retired brother priests. The Church maintains them until their dying day. Not so for you, as we all well know, and you can look forward to trying to remain actively employed to support yourself, your Order, and those sisters who have passed beyond gainful employment.

Further, your continued affiliation with and support of an institution which has knowingly harbored -- and aided and abetted -- predators of children for decades at least does not put you in a flattering light. Given your unfortunately all-too-apparent inability to press for legitimate change from within (after all, you can't even really defend yourselves from the current crackdown on your Orders from the highest levels of the Vatican), continued association with the Church will only lead to your being viewed as collaborators in the crimes committed.

I urge you to search deeply within your souls and your hearts to examine if you should perhaps part company with the Church, and forge your own Christian path, one less concerned with authority and obeisance and more in keeping with the teachings you follow.

No matter your choice, I wish you well in that journey, and hope that these present conflicts will result in a stronger community in the future.

willnat
willnat

Notice that the symbol next to Robert James' name is the pentagram --- of that wikipedia says: "Pentagrams were used as an important religious symbol by the Babylonians and by the Pythagoreans in ancient Greece. Pentagrams are used today as a symbol of faith by many Neopagans, akin to the use of the cross by Christians and the Star of David by Jews."

blockhead
blockhead

Dozens of people criticizing Morlino, only 2-3 defending the bully. willnat does the work on many!

IowaMike
IowaMike

blockhead,

Apparently only a few have got the recipe. Bishop...and I emphasize 'Bishop' Morlino is doing absolutely the right thing in keeping with the teachings of the Church. It is long overdue and is all the sweeter now that it is finally happening.

Robert James
Robert James

Your point?

willnat
willnat

By their symbols yea shalt know them.

Robert James
Robert James

Might amuse you to know, then, that the pentagram has been used by various sects of Christianity as well as the modern Wiccans, and several other groups. The meaning of the symbol, regardless of what your point was, is determined by the ones using it, not other people.

And for your information, I've never claimed to be anything but a Wiccan practitioner. And *my* name is right here, where I can stand by it.

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

There are also 50 of them on the United States flag, so where exactly are you going with this?

willnat
willnat

Really, the stars on the US flag are enclosed in circles?

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

willnat: "Really, the stars on the US flag are enclosed in circles?"

So, WillNat, you didn't even bother to look up the Wikipedia article that you yourself cited before you just HAD to flaunt your ignorance again, did you?

Norwood44
Norwood44

Well done Mr. James. Well done. That is the core of it. A new,enlightened church under the leadership of the Dominicans is a powerful notion. The very thought of it is comforting. Perhaps it is time for the sisters to nail a note to the door.

willnat
willnat

Yes, indeed, the sisters are like Martin Luther who nailed his objections on that door in Germany and caused a split in Christendom. They too (apparently) are rebels who are going off on tangents and pulling other poor, uninformed Catholic with them.

Robert James
Robert James

Oh, please. Luther's actions probably saved Christianity by forcing it back into a dynamic mode. Monocultures rarely succeed, whether you're talking about potatoes, politics or religions.

IowaMike
IowaMike

Robert James,

Disciplining these nuns is long overdue. Your social justice views of the nuns is correct. They have done great work on behalf of the poor, sick etc. But someplace along the line they got lost. Now they embrace new ageism, abortion, contraception, homosexual relationships, polytheism and, worst of all, they teach it even though it conflicts with deeply held Catholic doctrine.

In case you didn't know the LCWR (Leadership Conference of Women Religious) to which these nuns belong was founded at the behest of the Vatican, organized by the Vatican and is subject to the authority of the Vatican. The Vatican, like any other group on the planet, has every right to discipline them. I can't believe it has taken so long.

God Bless this bishop and I hope these nuns come around our get the heck out.

Norwood44
Norwood44

"Jesus is love." What a great sentence. To the defenders of this arrogant bully, it seems that your case statement is "Jesus is obscure, subjective Canon Law created by a few that serves to protect their power and threaten those who question it." Gotcha. Thanks for the clarification.

GrumpyOldMan
GrumpyOldMan

Sometimes love requires rebuke. How do you spot a soft liberal? If they use the word "bully" in every diatribe.

Norwood44
Norwood44

Grumpy. How about sodomizing those you profess to love? Is that the sort of rebuke of which you speak? I am not a soft liberal, but do call out bullies. Especially old men who, when their power is justifiably eroding, attempt to retain it by intimidating others. The Dominicans have done far more for this community than the carpetbagging Morlino has, or will ever do. He deserves to be shunned for his actions. I am sure the good folks in Platteville wish they had done more to resist his influence at their parish school. You can quote all the fine print and doctrine you desire Grump, but Morlino is simply a pompous administrator, and not a very good one at that.

GrumpyOldMan
GrumpyOldMan

Norwood, you are disgusting. Where did I mention sodomy? Regardless of what these particular nuns have done for their community, they have engaged in practices heretical to the Catholic Church.

IowaMike
IowaMike

Norwood44,

Still playing catch up.......try reading the John Jay College of Criminal Justice Study, 'The Context and Causes of the Abuse of Minors by Catholic Priests, 1950-2010. Once you get the facts.....well you won't make these kind remarks unless you just hate priests or something.

willnat
willnat

Because Penn State harbored child abusers, should we mention it every time we discuss a university? That's how Catholic Church-haters mention the scandal at every possible time. It's unfair and it's wrong.

willnat
willnat

After Jesus saved May Magdalene, he didn't say "do whatever you want," he said: "Go and sin no more."

IowaMike
IowaMike

Norwood 44,

How refreshing.....say bye bye to these nuns 'cause they have been shown the door by a faithful, honorable Bishop.

Mr LaMarr
Mr LaMarr

There is no God!

willnat
willnat

No, there IS a God.

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

What makes you think so?

willnat
willnat

One big reason:

Because the main religious organization in the world --- the Catholic Church --- is opposed to the killing of innocent human beings in the womb and most anti-religious and anti-God people see nothing wrong with such killing.

If you want more reasons why God exists, let me know. I have many.

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

WillNat, I can see why you might be politically sympathetic with the Catholic Church, but that wasn't the question I actually asked. I asked "What makes you think there is a God?". Care to take another crack at it?

IowaMike
IowaMike

What makes you think there is no God?

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

To IowaMike (below): I asked first.

IowaMike
IowaMike

RchardSRussell,

No you didn't ask first, I did. You started posting with the premise that there is no God and I asked you for proof.

IowaMike
IowaMike

You'll sing a different tune when you meet Him.

Norwood44
Norwood44

wisclev compares Morlino to Jesus. As if Jesus was wealthy, arrogant, drunk, intolerant and fat? And a bullier of women? Shame on you for that comparison. Be careful. Morlino might deny you communion rights. Even he is smart enough to find your comparison vapid.

willnat
willnat

Arrogant because he refuses to do what Catholic-haters want?
Intolerant because he refuses to tolerate what will lead Catholic under his care astray?
Bully because he found 2 of the 500 nuns in his diocese are teaching the Church of Jesus Christ is no different than pagan religious?
The only thing you say that's true is that he's overweight!

kcand13
kcand13

Seven years ago I was on a flight from Detroit to Madison with Morlino. He sat in first class and was wearing a Burberry trench coat. Vow of poverty? Not for him. Typical Catholic priest, do as I say, not as I do.

He's a dictator. These nuns are doing the real work of reaching out the community. Morlino sits in his ivory tower (fancy remodeled apartment) and screams out edicts. All priest who follow him and don't stand up for those doing the grassroots work should be ashamed of themselves.

GrumpyOldMan
GrumpyOldMan

These nuns are apparently guilty of "indifferentism" which is heresy in the Catholic Church. Regardless of their efforts, they are heretical.

willnat
willnat

That's right and the bishop has not only the right, but the duty, to enforce the most basic teaching of the church. If bishops of the past made sure Catholic schools taught of the evil of abortion maybe we would not have so many "Catholic" politicians supporting abortion on demand.

IowaMike
IowaMike

Willnat...

Too too right....read to 'em from the Good Book.

kcand13
kcand13

This is 2012 not the Medieval ages. The days of burning women at the stake for heresy are over, expect in Madison. I'm sure Morlino would bring that back if he could.

GrumpyOldMan
GrumpyOldMan

So you would allow heresy?

IowaMike
IowaMike

Burning at the stake....what a marvelous image. No....the Church doesn't burn heretics anymore it just makes sure they can't teach their heresy by banning them from doing so.

Seems like a more human thing...but less they change their tunes on abortion and a few things......they might find themselves burning in the next life. :)

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

I am delighted to not only allow but highly encourage heresy.

I'm also a big fan of blasphemy (the ultimate victimless crime) and can never get enuf apostasy.

Each of these represents the triumph of free minds over ignorant superstition.

GrumpyOldMan
GrumpyOldMan

RSR,
That makes as much sense as the Freedom From Religion Foundation hiring Catholic priests to spread the word.

willnat
willnat

It's not about living in luxury (the President of the US does that. Do you criticize him?)

It's about the authentic teachings of the Church and the 2000 year old teaching authority of the bishops.

If p[people do not agree with the bishops they can always go elsewhere.

kcand13
kcand13

The president does not take a vow of poverty as a central tenet of his or her life.

Is the act of hiding serial child molesters from the law an authentic teaching of the church? I sure hope not.

Don't worry, willnat, I do not attend church so no need to find another diocese or another bishop.

willnat
willnat

Does this bishop belong to a religious order that requires its members to take a vow of poverty? Not every one does, you know. Or do you?

The act of child abuse is a grave sin deserving of eternal damnation. So teaches the Catholic Church. Our secular society only punishes them with a few years in prison. Which is a stronger punishment?

Too bad you don't attend a Catholic church, you might know something more on these issues.

IowaMike
IowaMike

kcand13,

So I guess you expect him to ride a donkey and wear a burlap sack. Look around....he is doing nothing more than representing the Church.

As for the nuns....wait 'til the judge comes down on the LCWR....then we'll see how many stick with the its leadership when they get the boot for doing the very same things these nuns are doing....rejecting Church doctrine. Much as you hate to hear this, they are not being disciplined for their social justice efforts but for their apostasy from the faith. Giving out food to the poor is great...supporting abortion, polytheism and new ageism is just flat not Catholic....bye bye sisters.

Rev Dr
Rev Dr

It's remarkable that Catholic bishops, particularly Morlino, continue to act with such arogrance. The circle to whom they speak grows smaller and smalled. They'll soon just be speaking to themselves -- mubling in their psychotic rants.

As for me, this seems like a good reason to send a check to the nuns. They must be doing something right is the bishop wants to shut them down.

willnat
willnat

You say: "such arogrance"

No, you are the one who's arrogance. The bishop is obligated to weed out people who are teaching something other than Church doctrine. He has over 500 nuns working in his diocese . . . is it surprising that 2 or 3 are teaching something other than what they should?

IowaMike
IowaMike

Rev Dr.

Maybe they can buy themselves some sage to burn at their next Wiccan ceremony. What don't you get about doing social justice verses accepting the Word Of God. The nuns do good in the first instance and are being disciplined for rejecting the Word.

array1
array1

The nerve of those nuns, expressing views that catholics are not superior to others. Surprised
Morlino didn't order that they be burned at the stake. In other news- the catholic church has surpassed a billion dollars in payouts to those molested by catholic priests, keep those donations to the church flowing people.

willnat
willnat

There we go again! Bring up the abuse scandal as if it made every pronouncement of the Catholic Church suspect! Well, the church has always taught that the sin of child abuse is one deserving of eternal damnation. But you conveniently always overlook that fact.

array1
array1

Your pronouncements don't apply to me. I'm not superstitious.

willnat
willnat

You are not superstitious? Chesterton said, "If you don't believe in God, you'll believe in anything."

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

WillNat (below): G. K. Chesterton — a Christian apologist 2nd only to C. S. Lewis but without Lewis's intellectual heft — clearly had no grasp of logic, and continuing to cite his illogicalities serves not to bolster your case but to undermine it by showing that you don't, either.

IowaMike
IowaMike

willnat,

The pretend Catholics always resort to invective because their arguments are empty. The Church abuse scandal in the U.S. has been over for years. The reports are out, the reparations made and the abuse rate within the CC far below that of society at large. But then if array1 didn't have that mud to sling....his post would have been empty.

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

WillNat, the Catholic Church may talk a good game when it comes to pederasty, but actions (or lack thereof) speak louder than words.
 
And pedophilia is just the preferred flavor of Catholic corruption in America. In Ireland it was forced peonage of "unruly" young women. In France it was boy babies for sale. In Africa it's massive death from AIDS due to obstinate opposition to condoms. In Latin America it's gross overpopulation in the face of abject poverty. Anywhere they can get away with it, it's control of the government and subjugation of women.
 
I trust I need not get into the historical horrors of the Crusades and the Inquisition.

All over the world, for much of the last 2000 years, the Catholic Church has been one of the most evil, arrogant, corrupt organizations on the planet. The sooner it dies for good, the better off civilization will be.

GrumpyOldMan
GrumpyOldMan

Still, the nuns broke the rules.

willnat
willnat

Your anti-Catholic rant is selective, full of distortions & lies and absurd.

For every one person who was condemned in the Inquisition there are 50,000 people who were murdered under atheistic communism in the 20th century.

Religion, and especially the Roman Catholic Church, has been at the forefront in the battle for human rights in the last 100 years --- in the last 2000 years! No other institution has dome more to help the poor, the discriminated against, the weak, the sick. Thanks be to God for His Church!

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

Reply to WillNat's comment below:

So, WllNat, if I join you in condemning the undoubted and well documented atrocities of Communism, will you join me in also condemning the equally undoubted and equally well documented atrocities of the Catholic Church, on the theory that 2 wrongs don't make a right?

gman
gman

If one reads the early church soon after Jesus ascended to heaven the disciples started to blame Mary Magdalen and the other woman. The bishop isn't new nor does it have anything ANYTHING to do with the will of GOD.

willnat
willnat

You must have learned your Biblical history from these two nuns!

IowaMike
IowaMike

:-) LOL

wisclev
wisclev

Jesus was out of touch with the people of his day, which is why they crucified Him. Just because the majority in Madison despises Bishop Morlino and thinks our bishop is "out of touch" shouldn't surprise anyone. Christ warned His Apostes after all: "If the world hates you, realize that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world the world would love its own; but because you do not belong to the world the world hates you." (John 15:18-19)

Praise be to God that we in Madison are fortunate enough to have a shepherd like Bishop Morlino to lead us! May God grant us the humility to listen to those whom He has sent to us and may we all learn to accept and love the truth more and more.

Whazzat
Whazzat

Praise be to God that we in Madison are fortunate enough to have a shepherd like Bishop Morlino to lead us! May God grant us the humility to listen to those whom He has sent to us and may we all learn to accept and love the truth more and more.

Yes, a shepherd herds sheep. Think about it.


Read more: http://host.madison.com/news/local/bishop-robert-morlino-cracks-down-on-madison-nuns-for-espousing/article_37f434d0-4325-11e2-a826-001a4bcf887a.html#ixzz2El8sERd2

willnat
willnat

It's okay with me if you call me a sheep and you call a bishop following the teaching of Christ a shepherd.

IowaMike
IowaMike

Whazzat,

Christ said, "I am the Sheperd and you are the sheep". I guess being a Sheperd ain't so bad huh?

Grason
Grason

Thanks for the update, Bishop.

IowaMike
IowaMike

wisclev,

Well said.....

gman
gman

Priests molest and yet they go after nuns. Circle the wagons and like republicans blame the poor. Old conservative white men are the same. Put them in power positions and they are never wrong but they can usually find others to blame. What ever respect I ever had for the priests remain in the missionary and hospice and in individuals the power positions are just political hacks who gain more power by crony behavior and eventually they are so far out of touch with reality they only serve themselves. Jesus recognized it then just as we see it now.

GrumpyOldMan
GrumpyOldMan

"Indifferentism" is heresy in the Catholic Church. Heretical teachers must be shown the door. Are you saying that due to the problems of the Catholic Church (and there are problems, no doubt) they should altogether cease to follow their own rules?

Norwood44
Norwood44

Grumpy. How do you know that it is not Morlino who is heretical? Let's remember what Christ did with the high priests.

willnat
willnat

We know because he holds the same beliefs and the Pope (successor to Christ) and the 3000+ Catholic bishops (successors to Christ's apostles) throughout the world.

GrumpyOldMan
GrumpyOldMan

How do you know he is heretical?

IowaMike
IowaMike

Norwood44,

Have to call you on this one....what heretical behavior or action has Bishop Morlino done exactly or you just throwing mud?

Whazzat
Whazzat

I love it when Morlino makes the newspaper. It always brings back memories of my catholic upbringing. Morlino is correct that "indifferentism" has to be nipped in the bud. Every good catholic knows that non-Catholics are going to hell. They taught us that fact from an early age. When I attended catholic high school I had a class taught by a priest, who intended to strengthen our faith by making us critical thinkers. Unfortunately, many of us did start thinking for ourselves and came to the realization that the whole religion thing is a sham. Unless, of course, you "believe" and have "faith" that your particular god is the real deal. For those in doubt, do yourself a favor and read a good book on the subject - "The god Delusion" for starters. I can truly say that life is better when I think for myself. The whole fear and guilt trip of organized religion is really a chain around your neck. Good luck with your journey.

willnat
willnat

Well, it looks like your journey toward nothingness has ended in the same place it did for the Stalinists of the thirties. Without God people degenerate into what we are seeing today . . . killing millions of unborn children and if they are accidentally born alive leave them on tables to die.

IowaMike
IowaMike

Whazzat,

I've read Dawkins, Hitchens, Singer etc. They make me laugh because they cannot prove that God does not exist so they, like most theists, resort to mockery, name calling etc. In the end....when Dinesh D'Souza debated Dawkins and Hitchens he completely destroyed them. You might want to read "What is so Great About Christianity" by D'Souza, you might learn something.

With respect to Catholic theology on who goes to heaven.....The Church does not teach that non-Catholics are going to hell. Did you ever hear of invincible ignorance?

I'm sorry you lost the faith but it is likely it is because you don't understand it.

Galileo Galilei
Galileo Galilei

I see the usual defenders of Morlino are still pushing the case for his "Authority". It is really too bad he is spending so much time trying to "Purify" his dioceses while thousands go hungry this holiday season.

We should be expanding the church to welcome all rather than restricting it.

GrumpyOldMan
GrumpyOldMan

All are welcome.

didi
didi

@Galileo--Your statement is FALSE. The Catholic church calls for us to help the unfortunate in so many different ways. A few of these ways are feeding the hungry at place where we come together preparing food for the hungry, food pantries in which we work and bring food items for the hungry, have clothing stores affordable and sometimes free for the homeless or the "hungry," build houses for the less fortunate here in America as well as overseas (Haiti for an example), a multicultural place for helping, a charity organization set up to fit specific needs, a place for Woman for help of their pregnancies, etc, etc, etc. Spewing lies is about your character.

array1
array1

didi tell me please,
Do you believe that Catholicism is superior to Buddhism? Do you believe non Catholics will go to hell? Don't be afraid to answer.

willnat
willnat

Of course the Catholic Church teaches it's superior to Buddhism. But it does NOT teach all non-Catholics go to hell. It teaches many can, just as many Catholics can go to hell.

didi
didi

@array--NO I do not believe Catholicism is superior to Buddhism but I believe GOD is superior to humanity. NO, I do not believe non Catholics or unbaptized will go to hell. It is not for to judge, AND I believe it is in the heart that speaks the truth because many times the voice makes excuses. GOODNESS is God. LOVE is God. Comments that are revengeful and spiteful are "sinful"--in my opinion.

IowaMike
IowaMike

array1,

Of course I believe that Catholicism is superior to any other religion on earth as it was founded by Jesus Christ, the One True God.

No I don't believe that non-Catholics will go to hell. In all likelihood they will enjoy the doctrine of 'invincible ignorance'

malachi_ko
malachi_ko

You expand your LOVE to accept others. You don't expand the ideas of the church. Those must be based only on the truth in the Bible. Anything outside of that will lead you away from God. You don't change your beliefs to allow others in. They need to see the benefits of a loving, just God.

willnat
willnat

Well said!

willnat
willnat

Yes, you'd like that, right? Expand the church to include people who call for abortion and euthanasia for any reason. Who call for marriage of to men. Who call for the creation of embryos so they can be killed in experiments.

IowaMike
IowaMike

Galileo Galilei,

The Catholic Church is in the top five charities in the world....you need to up your insult game.

As Chris said, "The poor will always be with us".

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

So if I give a Cadillac to every household on my block and only shoot 3 of their kids, that makes me a great guy in your book, right?

IowaMike
IowaMike

RichardSRussell,

You started out tying to make cogent remarks and now have gone to the atheist snarky playbook.

Catholic Charities help millions and millions of people around the globe every year. What exactly do the atheists do for anyone other than put up dumb billboards.

See when you resort to snarky you abandon reason....then you get spanked.

Norwood44
Norwood44

Delwisconsin needs to have a rigid set of archaic and complicated rules rules that tell him what to do. These obscure, arbitrary codes have been created over time by other small, frightened men like himself and Bob Morlino so they can can then interpret them for their own benefit, power and sense of worth. It's very creepy and sad. God is embarrassed by these guys. He wishes they would shut up and go fishing or something. That's what God thinks. Del will argue, but pay him no mind. He's very uptight and repressed. Just be good as you can to other people. Men and women. Leave Del and Bob to God. It's not going to be pretty.

GrumpyOldMan
GrumpyOldMan

Good point, let these nuns teach their own arbitrary codes!

Norwood44
Norwood44

Grumpy. We'll bring you soup. Then nap time for you. When you get up you can yell at the nuns again while we give you your pills.

GrumpyOldMan
GrumpyOldMan

Norwood-Dingell,
No one is yelling.

IowaMike
IowaMike

Norwood44,

What kind of soup would that be...heresy stew? Don't think anybody wants some of that.

willnat
willnat

That's what the anti-Catholic commenters here would like. Anything that leads to the destruction of the Roman Catholic Church! Well, guess what, it hasn't gone away in 2000 years and it's not going to disappear now!

didi
didi

wow Norwood, didn't realize you are the almighty and know all the answers. "God embarrassed by these guys" -- words of YOUR opinion and of course not factual at all. Seems many like to interpret God. Your comment here obviously slanted to a person who likes to Catholic bash and/or demean God by boxing God in to YOUR interpretation of God. In fact, being Catholic does not have complicated rules, and they are NOT obscure codes created frighten men. The Catholic teachings are simple but many choose to read between the lines and make up LIES because they are simply uninformed, or beat to their own god of idolotry.

Norwood44
Norwood44

didi. one of the first things to go when you listen to men like Morlino is your sense of humor. My comments about God were absurd, as are Morlino's.The only difference is that I was aware of the absurdness, while Morlino is oblivious.

willnat
willnat

Norwood, you're a regular comedian!

IowaMike
IowaMike

Norwood44,

Your comments were indeed absurd but consistent.

didi
didi

Norwood, actually it is not the humor that goes first but the sarcasm that begins when one wants to put in digs and call it humor. I love to laugh and I love humor but NOT at the expense of another human being. To me that isn't humor, it is ridicule with a smirk. Bishop Morlino has a job to do and it involves shepherding the Catholic teachings and the followers of those he is teaching through the WORD. You are NOT asked to be a Catholic--you choose to be a Catholic and with your choice it involves truth of the Catholic teachings. If you don't want to follow the teachings--why stay?

IowaMike
IowaMike

Norwood44,

I shudder to think that you know what God thinks....LOL.

Norwood44
Norwood44

When it comes to godlike pronouncements from Blustery Bob and kooks like delwisconsin I am pretty indifferentisic.

willnat
willnat

Then you think teachings of the Catholic Church --- like opposition to cannibalism ---- are just as valid as pro-cannibal teaching of some bizarre sects.

IowaMike
IowaMike

Norwood44,

Keep the insults coming......it is defining you.

gadfly
gadfly

Newsflash: Powerful organization silents dissent to keep power. Dissent in this case being anything we don't like. It's pretty simple. If this is the church you want then go and give. If it's not then don't go and stop giving them money. Because it really is all about money eventually. Can you imagine if any of these "Princes of the Church" had to actually live as Jesus taught us too? Someone should tell Morlino that gluttony is one of the seven deadlies.

GrumpyOldMan
GrumpyOldMan

We are all fallen and imperfect. "Indifferentism" is heresy in the Catholic Church.

didi
didi

Newsflash--I hope you put your words to good use--living as Jesus would want you too. How is the 10 commandments working for you? Just asking that is all, because if one wants to cast the stones, let them be free of sin themselves. "All right, but let the one who has never sinned throw the first stone!" John 8:7

willnat
willnat

I just read that the California Democratic Party will not allow anyone who is opposed to abortion to run for state or national office as a democrat. Is this what you mean by a powerful organization?

Unfortunately, Pro-Life Democrats and voters in California suffer. With the Catholic Church you can stop being member, but what do voters do in California?

Slater
Slater

Fads? It is a clear awakening in the social conscience that started in the sixties and continues today. Del, you say that Vatican II is absolute. People back in the day said it was caving to popularism. How are these sisters doing anything different than the catholic hierarchy back in the day. Love your neighbor brother. That's what we're all saying here.

IowaMike
IowaMike

Slater,

Vatican II was an ecumenical counsel and did not change one iota of Catholic doctrine. Vatican I was the last doctrinal counsel. You can find its decrees on-line.

sioux7000
sioux7000

I was wondering when the next "scathing" news story about Bishop Morlino would be written up.

Its not like Madison ever had a positive perception of the Catholic Church. Subjectively or objectively.

Robert James
Robert James

Oh, don't blame "the media". The only way Morlino and his actions could be reported on positively would be to embrace the supposition that his actions are always wise and good. Otherwise, you're simply left with the truth.

Oh, and by the way: "Madison" doesn't have perceptions, positive or otherwise. Madison is a -city-. A very diverse one, too, and your attempt to paint the entire place with a broad brush is an insult to many fine Catholics who live here.

Oscar
Oscar

When will the church crack down on morlino? The world has expanded beyond Rome and the Middle East and needs to reflect that women, other religions, outer space and technology actually exist. The sad, miserable excuses for defenders of the faith resort to calling everyone else haters. morlino will be the last one closing the door of empty churches everywhere if he continues on this road of inquisition. I was a conservative catholic, considering the priesthood. I have been driven from the church by the hatred coming from folks like morlino. The whack jobs supporting him just reinforce the definition of the catholic church of being a cult.

didi
didi

Oscar--"The sad, miserable excuses for defenders of the faith resort to calling everyone else haters."

May I ask what your comment suggests about YOU. I am very skeptical of your once upon a time thinking about becoming a priest when your comment suggests a person opposite of Jesus. Read your comment again aloud and then tell me if it is of a loving Jesus that you profess to be a part of" You don't have to be part of Catholic church to follow the teachings of Jesus BUT to comment with hatred and revenge as many here are doing speaks volumes of their love of Jesus. Disagree--fine but: "He who will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile." 1 Peter 3:10

Oscar
Oscar

The commenters in this forum have posted bizarre, twisted fantasies of what catholocism is. didi and iowamike are correct in questioning my faith. My answer is that I was driven away from the church by people like morlino and these posters. My faith has been damaged by the hypocrisy of these folks. If you think for one moment that I would sit back and take the abuse and criticism of those attacking me from ivory towers or glass houses, you are sadly mistaken. Poster are claiming that the pedophile priest scandal is over, while 70 miles away in Milwaukee, the diocese is successfully trying to weasel out of a civil judgement. Posters are stating that you should not think and that you require guidance. That smacks of cultist thinking to me. You are judging me and according to your gospels, that is not your job. So don't throw biblical phrases in my face. It is they who commented with hatred first.

didi
didi

@Oscar--sadly your pain shows rage that speaks volumes with your opinions that radiate your own distance from Jesus. Your wounds are still very much open and hopefully your faith has been restored. The Bible is NOT owned by Catholics but inspired by God to God's people. There is NO where in my comment where I have judged you, and my quote of the scripture is reminding you of the goodness you hold deep within your heart, and a reminder of the peace you can come home too. The Bible is still truth and life giving. As a Catholic, I don't always agree with everything said and done but understand that my convictions will not go against my values as I TRY to stay mindful of who I claim to be, and that is a child of God first and foremost. I have learned from my own experiences that sometimes we have to forgive humanity, and find peace in God alone. I struggle, I falter, and continue to pick myself up and continue to try to move forward towards a loving God. Again I am not judging you--just maybe calming the "beast" that roars within you from a damaged spirit. For more clarity Oscar, it is not only the abuse and criticism from the "ivory" or "glass" towers of "Catholic" that may be upsetting, but be reminded of our broken country (the people) of revengeful tongues that shake our holy ground, and the hypocrisy of political forums that want to dissolve our constitution. I am not sure what comments you are referring as hateful first because the ones I read are about bashing Catholics and I am offended by the lumping all in one. On a positive note--it is nice to see you hold convictions of self worth. To be truly faith and wisdom filled, it is about knocking, asking, and seeking the WORD. The Bible IS the gateway to truth. I don't know the answers, but hopefully we are on the same journey to a destination of a new Eden?

IowaMike
IowaMike

Oscar,

We are all judged by our words and actions everyday and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it....nothing.

Having said that I haven't seen anyone try to judge your eternal soul, that is between you and God. But I'll tell you this, you hatred for the Church and its clergy is putting your eternal salvation at risk. If you are aware of the Christ's teachings and reject them then you are a heretic, you cannot claim invincible ignorance and therefore will have to answer to Christ at the particular judgment accordingly.

Your contention because there is litigation about a child abuse case going on as evidence that child abuse is alive and well in the CC is empty. The Church has paid out billions in reparations. Until recently priests were not defended nor allowed to defend themselves......how many of these decades old claims were false so people could cash in. Are you following the legal maneuverings of SNAP as they they obviscate, dodge, evade and misrepresent themselves to the Missour Courts as an accused priest and his diocese have decided to defend the accusations made by SNAP. David Clohessy is a evil, money grubbing, liar that hates the Catholic Church and does everything in his power damage the Church. But he's on the hotseat now and I think before this is settled he will spend a little time in prison.

If you want to be fair you need to research what the Church as done and when this problem was resolved. Otherwise your just another ex-Catholic bigot blindly attacking the Church.

IowaMike
IowaMike

Oscar,

I know a lot of religious and I've never met a single one, no matter how discouraged, that sound like you. If you ever had faith it seems to have slipped through your soul and fingers.

concerned_citizen
concerned_citizen

clearly the Catholic hierarchy don't respect women

religious fanatics often don't

so what does that say about religious fanatics? (in Afghanistan, America, wherever)

willnat
willnat

Is this a new take on the bogus "War on Women" the pro-abortion democrats thought up this year?

willnat
willnat

Catholic women are at the forefront of the opposition to killing unborn children. They appreciate that their Church is taking a leading role in opposing something that is the very opposite of what it means to be a woman.

Sardath
Sardath

According to the article, Bishop Morlino's decree "does not give specific examples of things the women may have said that violate church teaching" but rather "references problematic statements on the center's website"--including the fact that they embrace "the wisdom found in other religious traditions."

Now according to Del, all Catholics are obligated to be "Vatican II Catholics", so maybe we should see what Vatican II has to say on this subject. Here is an interesting passage from the Vatican II document entitled "Nostra Aetate", known in English as the "Declaration on the Relation of the Church to Non-Christian Religions":

"The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men. ... The Church, therefore, exhorts her sons, that through dialogue and collaboration with the followers of other religions, carried out with prudence and love and in witness to the Christian faith and life, they recognize, preserve and promote the good things, spiritual and moral, as well as the socio-cultural values found among these men."

So Vatican II explicitly instructs Catholics to "recognize, preserve and promote" the wisdom found in other religious traditions, and to do so "through dialogue and collaboration" with those who follow those religions. Judging from the group's web site, that is exactly what they have been doing. How, then, can Bishop Morlino view this as "problematic"?

GrumpyOldMan
GrumpyOldMan

"Indifferentism" is heresy in the Catholic Church.

didi
didi

*first of all, I believe we are going back to before Vatican II because too many lay people have decided to abuse and stretch the truth of Vatican II and have gone astray because of that factor. Many have decided to make-up the views and therefore Bishop Morlino has decided (and he should) to bring back the flock to the true teachings of the Catholic Church. "The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few..." Luke 10:2
*secondly, too many people here are once again going on assumptions without all the facts and making a decision on their own, especially when it has no bearing on you personally.
*it would interesting to know how many here who love to slander and Catholic bash on this comment page are really true Catholics?

IowaMike
IowaMike

Sardath,

What don't you understand about an ecumenical counsel? You badly misread the intent of the document. Entering into discussion and collaboration does not mean to accept their teachings! The Church has always recognized that other 'faith communities' contain elements of truth but only the Catholic Church contains the fulness of truth. So you are badly mistaken. Bishop Morlino has done the right thing in accordance to the Catholic faith.....period.

Sardath
Sardath

Please explain how a commitment to embrace "the wisdom found in other religious traditions" constitutes a denial of the Catholic Church's claim to "contain the fulness of truth"--especially when, as you admit, the Church also recognizes that those other traditions do contain "elements of truth" which Catholics were instructed by Vatican II to "recognize, preserve and promote".

IowaMike
IowaMike

Sardath,

They are Catholic nuns who are preaching indifferentism, new ageism, polytheism, support abortion, contraception and many other things that Church doctrine condemns AND they are doing it under the banner of the Catholic Church. That cannot be allowed.

There is no problem talking with people of other faiths but there is a big difference when you say they the Catholic Church is just one of the faiths out there and teach that all faiths are equal....they are not.

Slater
Slater

DelWisconsin, you say you think critically and then in the same paragraph say we should blindly accept what the bishop says.
You say no one is insulting the nuns and go on to insult the nuns. Do you hear what you're saying? No. Because you are blind.

grampabucky
grampabucky

Nuns On The Liberal Bus. Some spanking going on at the Nunnery. Tisk Tisk.

grampabucky
grampabucky

Advise to all Altar Boys in the Madison area. RUN!!!

didi
didi

shame on you grampabucky. your words are vile and your comments speaks volumes of your character of hate.

IowaMike
IowaMike

grampabucky,

Sounds like you are a man of experience.

Herman Nudic
Herman Nudic

Ah yes, just when you think we've heard the last from blubbering Bob....sad, very sad. I guess things are back to normal once his drinking buddy from back East arrived. I could never quite figure out why in the midst of a priest shortage, at one of the busiest time of the year, a diocese would let one of their priests go to another diocese to help out. Guess what, like the rest of the enablers that surround Morlino, they're glad to get'em out ot there. Seems like they creat more problems than they fix. We're getting the reputation as the stray cat diocese in the US.

Booke
Booke

And it all comes back to this.... These nuns are dedicating their lives to the teachings of Jesus Christ and his message of service. This is on the opposite spectrum of Morlino who sits back in his palace eating shrimp and caviar with his Lilly white hands. Which person do u believe Jesus approves??? Not that I have to answer to you Del... But I have dedicated 24 years to public service and have done more for society in one month than Morlino has in 10 yrs. Just go back to your designated church pew and stand...kneel....stand...kneel and feel good about yourself. Let the nuns do the real work of Jesus

DelWisconsin
DelWisconsin

I hope you will be canonized.

DelWisconsin
DelWisconsin

I'm going to apologize for attacking you personally. Thank you for your service.

I am going to ask you to stop insulting our bishop. It is his job to warn against the "wolves in sheeps' clothing" -- the folks who claim they are spreading Christian teaching, when it is really some sort of indifferent, syncretic, New Age pagan spirituality. There are places to do that sort of thing, but not in Catholic churches.

It is not a fun job, but it is his job, and we are glad that he does it.

There is really no reason for you to get angry at him for doing his job, when he has to.

burbles
burbles

He may be doing his job, but he is still a pompous man. The Catholic Church has never respected woman in this faith and they do so much work without getting any credit. I was born and raised Catholic and I don't plan on changing my opinion on this whether he is doing his job or not. He still remains a pompous man and still has no respect for woman. I don't consider this any more of an insult calling him pompous than the disrespect he gives all woman connected with the Faith.

GrumpyOldMan
GrumpyOldMan

How has Morlino disrespected women?

IowaMike
IowaMike

burbles,

Your feminist views are showing. The Blessed Virgin Mary is a woman and she is revered within the Church. These nuns are being disciplined for their rejection of Catholic doctrine not social justice by a Catholic prelate charged with teaching the faith. This has nothing to do with feminism what-so-ever.

Women can't be priests and men can't get pregnant.....everybody get over it.

Sardath
Sardath

Del writes: "It is the bishop's job to define what is -- and is not -- authentically Catholic within his diocese. No one else can do the job for him."

It may be the bishop's job to do this, but what if he gets it wrong? What if he decides something is "authentically Catholic" when in fact it isn't? What if he decides something is not "authentically Catholic" when in fact it is? Are Catholics supposed to just believe (or at least pretend to believe) whatever comes out of the bishop's mouth, even if it is demonstrably false, or contradicts the teaching of an ecumenical council?

What if your bishop teaches one thing and the bishop across the river teaches the exact opposite? Does truth suddenly become falsehood, and falsehood truth, when you cross a diocesan boundary?

DelWisconsin
DelWisconsin

I don't know. that sort of bizarre behavior rarely comes up.... typically, the fellow bishops are pretty quick to isolate a crazy rogue. Like what happened with Bp. Weakland in Milwaukee.

Basically, the American Church went through a long period wherein the bishops were not behaving like pastors.... and in the end, we got the homosexual abuse crisis.

Then the public got justifiably angry, and demanded that the bishops do their jobs. So they cleaned up the house of sexual predators, and now they are speaking out and teaching -- like they should have, all along. And the public wants them to go back to sleep!

Sardath
Sardath

No, Del, it's not rare at all, and it's not just a case of individual bishops gone rogue who are quickly reined in by their peers. Quite the contrary.

You may remember that some years ago there was a bit of unpleasantness over an article in the WSJ about Catholic teaching on the eternal destiny of Protestants. In response to that article, the Diocese of Madison--acting under Bishop Morlino's personal authority--issued a written statement declaring, "The Church has never taught as ... doctrine that 'Protestants are going to hell.'" That statement, of course, is flatly false as a simple matter of history. So are Catholics bound to believe it nevertheless?

At the beginning of the Iraq War, several ecclesiastical authorities in Rome, including the future Pope Benedict (who at the time headed the Church's chief doctrinal organ, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith), flatly declared that the American attack on Iraq was unjust under the terms of Catholic "just war" teaching. At the same time, Bishop Morlino was publicly teaching that those objections from Rome were just some cardinals' opinions which could be safely ignored, and further that the young people among Madison's faithful had a duty to enlist in the U.S. military and fight in that war. So who were Madison Catholics to believe and obey: those who spoke with the authority of Pope John Paul II regarding the application of the Church's traditional just war teaching, or Bishop Morlino?

And of course if one digs a little deeper into history, much worse examples are not hard to find. There are, for instance, the official declarations of the German bishops at the beginning of World War II:

"Beloved flock, we are today directing a word of exhortation to you in our fatherly love and concern, that it may inspire you to devote your full efforts to service of the Fatherland and our precious homeland in conscientious fulfillment of duty and serious awareness of your mission."

"Once again a large part of our men and youth has been called to arms, and they are engaged in bloody conflict or stand guard on the borders in firm determination to shield the Fatherland and to risk their lives to win for our people a peace of freedom and justice."

"[Remember] what is at stake for our people in these stormy days; and in whatever is asked of you, each sees before him the shining example of a true warrior, our Leader and Supreme Commander, the first and most valiant soldier of the Greater German Reich, who is even now with you at the battlefront."

Unfortunately, the German people did exactly as you recommend: They revered their bishops as witnesses of divine and Catholic truth; they submitted to their bishops' decision; and they adhered to it with a ready and respectful allegiance of mind. Millions died as a result.

Do you really think that was a good idea?

IowaMike
IowaMike

The Church did not and has not declared the wars in the Mid-East as 'unjust'.

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

I don't think the public was demanding that the bishops do THEIR job.
 
They were demanding that the cops do THEIRS.

IowaMike
IowaMike

Sardath,

Errant bishops get the boot just like these two nuns..so do errant priests. The bishops collaborate within the USCCB and I doubt you can produce a single example of two bishops teaching different articles of doctrine that has not already been addressed.

djs
djs

This is SO fourteenth-century. Can someone please explain how this mentality differs in any respect from any other religious fundamentalism, be it Islam, Judaism, Mormonism, fill-in-the-blank-ism?

In the interest of full disclosure, I was baptized Catholic and indoctrinated at Queen of Peace back in the 1960s. As soon as I developed the capacity to think, I ran away from the institution as fast as I could. And today, I'm simply baffled that anybody can take this "thou shalt because I know better" stuff seriously.

These guys - all guys - need to lose the funny frocks, and talk to us like the thinking human beings that God created.

Norby
Norby

Djs,
Well said! My background is similar to your's and I completely agree with you.

DelWisconsin
DelWisconsin

It's more like Thirteenth Century -- the Age of St. Dominic, St. Albert the Great, St. Thomas Aquinas, and St. Francis of Assisi. It is a springtime for the Church.

It is a time of clear definition: A time when Catholics can say, "This is what we believe, and that is what we do not believe."

We stand against the fads of the current culture. We stand against Relativism. We believe that truth and reality are real and solid, and individuals can be right or wrong about reality.

The current culture teaches that "Truth is dead. 'Think for yourself,' because no one has anything true to teach you." We reject that.... even if you call us "fundamentalist."

Sardath
Sardath

Ah, yes, Francis of Assisi--the Church's never-exhausted "get out of jail free" card.

Unfortunately, while St. Francis got away with being a real Christian, his followers didn't fare so well. Their fate is thoroughly documented in a recent book entitled "The Spiritual Franciscans: From Protest to Persecution". As one reviewer of the book summarized:

"Within 100 years of St. Francis's death in the early 13th century, his ideal of apostolic poverty was condemned as heresy, and Spiritual Franciscans were all too frequently burned at the stake. Criticisms of laxity in the order spurred accusations that the popes were forerunners of the Antichrist, while papal authorities found Franciscan extremists [i.e., those who wanted to faithfully continue following St. Francis!] to be heretical and disobedient to ecclesiastical authority."

Since then the Church has continued to claim the name of St. Francis while repudiating much of what he actually taught and did--just as the present hierarchy is claiming the name of Vatican II while busily reversing its teachings and achievements on every front.

jimatmadison
jimatmadison

Embracing "the wisdom found in other religious traditions" = Bad

Buggering little boys = OK

didi
didi

a hateful remark coming from an adult? IF one is part of the Catholic Church teachings then they should believe and teach the truth of the teachings and if they do not believe in those teachings --LEAVE and go somewhere else. It is like someone staying in a marriage and commiting adultry over and over again and then upset when the spouse says enough is enough--get out!

happydays
happydays

I am not a catholic - but it seems to me that the catholic church has certain doctrine and if a person doesn't believe in them - they should join a church they do believe in - that simple -

GrumpyOldMan
GrumpyOldMan

Kudos to Bishop Morlino. The reason the Church has lost members is that it has lost its way since Vatican II. It has become feel good nonsense ... my goodness don't ever judge what goes on with the laity. If it feels good it must be good!

didi
didi

the "church" is the people so actually it is the people who have lost their way. It is NOT the Catholic Church that presents the feel good attitude, but our country that is swaying to a feel good "me" attitude. I want a child--abort it. I don't like the rules--change it. I don't like my wife--beat her up. I don't like someone who disagrees with me--boycott, bully, etc. etc. If you want truth than look in the mirror and see what your reflection reveals. I am not saying you personally--that is your decision. We have become a nation of a type of Sodom and Gomorroh--chaos of lost morals, values, respect of another human being, and idolotry of self. Just for clarity purposes, I am not suggesting anything about a person's preference but just about behavior.

shs67
shs67

My only question is who died and made him GOD! This person has No heart for being human, if he did he would help all what ever they have done and Oh yes forgive. Its called being like Jesus. The man he prays to MAYBE?

DelWisconsin
DelWisconsin

It is the bishop's job to define what is -- and is not -- authentically Catholic within his diocese. No one else can do the job for him.

joc
joc

Del, Good point. Maybe it is time to eliminate his position & put the Dominicans in charge as they seem to be more in line with the teachings of the founder, JC.

twentysomething
twentysomething

Joc, perhaps you should study up Jesus' reactions to people who weren't in line with his teachings. Take Matthew 21:12 for example: "And Jesus entered the temple of God and drove out all who sold and bought in the temple, and he overturned the tables of the money-changers and the seats of those who sold pigeons." Love does not mean letting people do whatever they want; *true* love calls people out when they are wrong and sometimes that hurts. The intention, however, is not to just leave the person hurting and sulking in pain for the rest of their life but rather, push them to amend and move forward. With that, Bishop Morlino's intentions are not to just "give people the boot so that they never come back," but rather so that they are able to see that the way they're living their lives doesn't necessarily match up with the Faith they are living out. These Sisters, by no fault of their own, have been steered off-course and have lost vision of the Truth found in the Catholic Faith. By being indifferent people claim that no one truth is more right than another, when in fact, there is an absolute truth and that is what the Catholic Church is trying to reclaim in today's society.

Booke
Booke

Very well said norby!!! The catholic hierarchy tends to be less concerned about the teachings of Jesus, and more concerned with politics and power... When is the last time you have seem Morlino at a soup kitchen or anywhere serving the public..

DelWisconsin
DelWisconsin

He serves by preaching. That is his job.

We are wondering when we will see Booke serving in public. Do you know where the soup kitchen is?

IowaMike
IowaMike

Booke,

Thanks for the laugh...I'm betting it is more likely that the bishop goes to help at a soup kitchens that you would and if he got there....I doubt he'd see you fillin' the bowls.

BananaSplitz
BananaSplitz

Uppity nuns rule.

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

Has anybody ever seen Robert Morlino and Karl Rove in the same room at the same time?

demonized state worker
demonized state worker

Best comment Ever!

scorp
scorp

One does wonder who "leaked" the memo to the press. Unfortunately some sisters have decided that celebrity status ranks well above the vow of obedience they made to the Church . If they desire to join the cafeteria catholics , go for it . However ,don't try to claim the authority of the church in teaching principles foreign to the Catholic Church. Merely renounce the faith and teach what you will , but NOT as a Catholic . The fact that one is reading this in the media clearly demonstrates that some are consumed by the need for public adulation and not for service to the lost and vulnerable. Good work in the protection of the faith and the faithful , Bishop !

seamus
seamus

Drunky Morlino has a knack for alienating human beings. What a tool.

willnat
willnat

Yes, for supporting the teaching of the church of Our Lord and Savior, he can be called a "Tool of Christ"

IowaMike
IowaMike

Seamus,

Wise beyond your years...thanks for complimenting the good bishop despite your intentions to insult him.

Booke
Booke

Delwisconsin..... Doesn't excuse the fact that he is an arrogant man. He needs to stay out of politics and start studying the life of Jesus Christ a little more!

malachi_ko
malachi_ko

Jesus Christ would have blasted these women for teaching religious ideas that were not based on biblical teaching.

Jesus preached love, yes. But he was also fully Truth.

They are deviating from that. While I fully agree that there are things the Catholic faith does wrong. It is his job to correct these women. Especially since they are using their standing as Catholic nuns to support their teaching.

IowaMike
IowaMike

Booke,

Politics..what politics?

DelWisconsin
DelWisconsin

It is the job of the bishop to be the chief pastor and teacher of his diocese. It is his job to make sure that teachers who operate under the "Catholic" brand are teaching authentic Catholic faith.

No bishop likes to issue this kind of discipline. It comes after a long process..... after many parishioners and pastors have complained about the troubling things certain teachers have said, it finally becomes necessary to talk with them.... review the materials, ask them about their teachings, find out their side. If there is some error, offer instruction and help them to teach authentic Catholic faith.

Once in a while, we encounter stubborn persons who will not accept correction and will not respect a request to stop teaching those errors as if it were Catholic faith. That's when the bishop must inform the local pastors that such-and-such person or program is not authentic Catholic teaching... and they must not be invited to speak at parishes as if they were teaching Catholic faith.

It is not fair or accurate for the WSJ to call this "a crackdown" (and I mean no insult to our friend, Doug Erickson, who is reporting in good faith!). But Bishop Morlino has little authority over the Dominican Sisters in his diocese. He cannot discipline the sister involved.

All he can do is to say that the program these two women teaching is not permitted in the Catholic parishes of Madison. The two ladies involved are still able to strut their stuff anyplace else that will have them, before anyone who wants to listen. Just not in Catholic parishes, because it's not a Catholic program.

You haters can blame Bishop Morlino for whatever you want.... but no one else has the responsibility to declare what is authentically Catholic (and what is not) in the Diocese of Madison. Faithful Catholics appreciate it when he does his job.

Norby
Norby

Delwisconsin,
I come from a very Catholic family, my father was an ordained deacon. I spent 12 years in Catholic elementary and high school. But I was taught to think and evaluate. No one including Bishop Morlino has the right or responsibility to think for you. Do you really believe that what god wants is a mindless subservient group of followers who believe more in ritual than a relationship with god?

DelWisconsin
DelWisconsin

I do think for myself, thank you. I am a notoriously critical thinker.

I think that I want to hear authentic Catholic teachings from authentic Catholic teachers. I think that I am glad we have a bishop who is doing his job, pointing out the teachers who are not passing on Catholic faith.

But even critical thinkers need to be humble. As Vatican II instructs us: Lumen Gentium, Chapter III, Article 25:

"Bishops who teach in communion with the Roman Pontiff are to be revered by all as witnesses of divine and Catholic truth; the faithful, for their part, are obliged to submit to their bishops' decision, made in the name of Christ, in matters of faith and morals, and to adhere to it with a ready and respectful allegiance of mind."

I'm a "Vatican II Catholic" (as we all must be), so I'm trusting my bishop when he feels obligated to speak out.

Norby
Norby

DelWisconsin,
One of the things I have learned as a college teacher over the last 24 years is that it is usually better to teach people "how" to think rather than "what" to think. While I remain theologically Catholic, I think we have to develop our own relationship with god. You have found it by putting your beliefs in the hands of someone else. It sounds like that has brought you closer to god, and I am truly happy for you. But my dialogue with god requires constant exploration. While I place high value on the views of church leaders, I do not consider them a substitute for my own conscience. God gave us a brain as well as the gift of faith. I believe god wants us to use both.

IowaMike
IowaMike

Norby,

No God wants faithful servants whose consciences are formed in communion with the Pope and the Magesterium. People who want to pick and choose what they believe do not have well formed consciences. Conscience does not trump doctrine and if you reject doctrine and cannot claim invincible ignorance....you b in big big trouble.

Shake
Shake

His School of the Americas buddies would just put a hit on them.

Grant23
Grant23

He is such a joke.

Reply
Reply

Once again the Catholic church, via Morlino, demonstrates everything wrong with the institution.

Love thy neighbor, unless said neighbor doesn't embrace without question everything the church espouses. Just be sure to open your wallet wide when the collection basket comes your way.

willnat
willnat

These anti-Catholic stereotypes have been around for centuries!

blockhead
blockhead

except you burned people at the stake for expressing them!

justice for all
justice for all

Has the Catholic Church lost touch with the American Woman. They seem to stop women at every angle from being an active member of the church just as the Republican Party. Maybe they have outdistanced themselves for modern society and the women of this world.

DelWisconsin
DelWisconsin

You don't seem to know any Catholic women.

willnat
willnat

Most Catholic women are strongly opposed to abortion. Did you know that?

Norby
Norby

Norby,
Morlino is the perfect example of why the Catholic Church has lost members. The "my way or the highway...I speak, you listen" approach is not (in my opinion) what the church is meant to be. The shepherd should be the mentor not the arbiter of political correctness. What we need is a spiritual guide in our search for a meaningful relationship with god.

epic
epic

But it is interesting that fundamentalist Christian churches are seeing increases in membership. I don't think Islam entertains too much dissent and that religion is gaining membership in Europe. Some people don't enjoy a rather malleable doctrine.

willnat
willnat

This is not political correctness. It is eternal truth. Just because you do not believe in absolute truth, it does not mean it does not exist.

Norwood44
Norwood44

The Sinsinawa Dominicans, who run both Edgewood College and High School, are the best of the Catholic Church. They have tremendous suppport in the Madison community, earned by over one hundred years of service. It is time to call Morlino's bluff and stand with the Dominicans. Bob, your time is up. Start packing.

fid
fid

Hear here! Truly, the Sinsinawa Dominicans have support in our community. Peace, justice, and spirituality.

This man Morlino is a boob who must leave here.

willnat
willnat

No, he is a true follower of the Lord Jesus Christ doing what he must do.

sunnyboy
sunnyboy

Well said. These nuns have done so much good in the world. Do not let the threats of an authoritarian power figure dim your light.

joc
joc

Sinsinawa Dominicans = the good in RCC

Morlino, well best not say what he represents. Would be uncatholic to do so.

Booke
Booke

Typical Morlino. Very arrogant man!!

willnat
willnat

And what things do you think a bishop must teach? When is he justified in repressing heresies?

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

Here's a practical definition of "heresy": "Something you and I disagree on, but I have power over you, ha ha ha!".

Mimi J
Mimi J

How very sad. I was lucky enough to attend graduate school at Edgewood College, and I fully support the efforts of the Sinsinawa Dominicans. I spent a wonderful Saturday with them at the Mound near Dubuque about 25 years ago; it was both a spiritual and magical experience. I am afraid Bishop Morlino is as out of touch with modern Catholicism as the GOP is with the modern American voter.

DelWisconsin
DelWisconsin

No one is insulting the Sinsinawa Sisters.

Remember the one old Sinsinawa sister who was "deathscorting" women into the abortion mill? She had to disciplined, but no one blamed the whole community for her actions.

Same with these women. They have apparently embraced some New Age pagan spirituality, and they are not allowed to teach it in Catholic parishes. This does not mean that the whole community has gone over to paganism, and no one means to imply this.

persia
persia

What when did the remove the pagan elements from Christianity? Is there no Christmas? No holly? no saint worship? Removing the paganism from Christianity would leave nothing left.

willnat
willnat

No, left is the entire Bible and the 2000-year-old traditions of the Church. Hardly nothing!!!

Of course, holly,and Christmas trees probably is all uninformed pagans know of Christianity.

epic
epic

There is no "modern Catholicism" because that would imply evolving change. I'd say that if you don't like the way the Catholic Church operates, try Unitarianism, Lutheranism or something on that order. Vote with your feet because women aren't going to get the right to vote in the Church anytime soon. The Pope and his bishops are like king and princes; just get over it.

willnat
willnat

No, the Catholic Church evolves where it is logical. For example, when science confirmed beyond doubt that the human fetus was a separate, developing person, the Church called its destruction murder.

It's ironic that non-believing anti-Catholics today unscientifically call the unborn child a "blob of tissue."

IowaMike
IowaMike

willnat,

Just for emphasis..... The Church has always condemned abortion...from the Writings of the Twelve in the 1st century (the Didache) until today.

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

Science has NEVER confirmed any such thing. "Person" is a legal concept, not a scientific one. Please spare us your ignorant propaganda.

As to the "evolution" of the Catholic Church, it's true that the pope DID apologize for the church's shameful persecution of Galileo. Only took 'em 350 years to get around to it. But it still clings stubbornly to its stupid misinterpretation of almah to mean "young woman who has never had sex" (IE, virgin) instead of merely "young woman", which is undoubtedly all it ever meant in the original. So much for evolution in the face of better information.

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

To IowaMike (below): I hope you realize that Justice Harry Blackmun, who researched the history of abortion quite thoroly before writing the majority decision in Roe v. Wade, did not come to the same conclusions as you, and as it happens his viewpoint, not yours, is the law of the land. See his narrative under Part VI here:
   http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=410&invol=113

IowaMike
IowaMike

RichadSRussell,

Ever see an abortion there Richard? Go to http://abortionno.org and have a look then tell me abortion is Okey Dokey. Just because Blackmun voted for abortion doesn't make it right anymore than abortion proponents are correct that abortion is a right guaranteed by the constitution; so the Supreme's could turn over Roe v. Wade in the future.

Statistics (readily available on the net) and the success of pro-life initiatives around the entire United States indicate the pro-aborts are losing the battle of public opinion.

No right thinking person could watch an abortion and come away thinking it's ok. Oh and don't give me one of these heart wrenching examples of the poor 15 year old, gang raped by her brother and friends, who is now being forced to have this rape baby........awwwwwwwwwwww. The fact is there have been about 55,000,000 abortions in the U.S. and less that .0000000000001% are for these kind of reasons. Abortion is now just another method of contraception.

IowaMike
IowaMike

Mimi J,

With all respect it is you that is out of touch. These nuns are teaching things which directly conflict with Catholic doctrine. If you approve of them doing so you are no better than they are.

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