Warning

Video contains graphic language. On July 10, 2013, this video was published on Facebook by Andrea Ladenthin, an opponent of the northern Wisconsin mine, from an encounter involving protesters and mine workers in June. The video was posted to YouTube by MTWisconsin.

Guards at the Gogebic Taconite mine site in Iron County need assault rifles and military garb because they must be ready for the worst, says the Arizona-based president of the security company that has drawn heavy criticism for its presence.

Bulletproof Securities president Tom Parrella said the high-powered, AR-15 rifles are justified because of online postings by mine opponents that appear to be death threats and by “strange and threatening behavior” by a few others.

“We don’t put our people out in harm’s way without giving them the best of the best in terms of the tools they need,” Parrella said. “There is absolutely no apology on the part of our company for sending our professionals out there with the tools they need.”

His comments came as video surfaced of masked protesters making profanity-laden verbal attacks on mine workers in a June 11 incident. The video shows a masked woman wrestling a camera from a mine worker while other protesters block co-workers from interceding.

The incident led to a charge of robbery by force and three misdemeanors against a Stevens Point woman.

The state’s business lobby, Wisconsin Manufacturers and Commerce, pointed to the video in a statement calling for closing public access to the site. The land owner receives tax breaks in exchange for leaving the land open for recreation.

Mine opponent Sen. Bob Jauch, D-Poplar, said the assailants in the video were “idiots” who aren’t representative of Wisconsin residents, “who regardless of their view on mining have respect for the rule of law.”

There may be just a few, Parrella said, but “radical” protesters have posted death threats on a Facebook page and guards have seen people “sneaking” through the woods several times a day.

“A handgun is relatively useless in some of these situations,” Parrella said. “We didn’t send them out with a belt-fed machine gun ... we sent them out with a lightweight (rifle) to give them the opportunity to defend themselves and the people at the site.”

Bulletproof guards were withdrawn Wednesday after it was learned that they were not licensed in Wisconsin.

A few weeks ago they stepped onto the scene of the controversial mine project that has roused environmentalists.

A conviction for operating without a license would block the company from operating in Wisconsin for a year. Iron County district attorney Marty Lipske is considering whether to prosecute. Jauch and another legislator have asked the mine company to banish the guards, saying they were needlessly intimidating and potentially dangerous.

Anthony Stella, a Hurley attorney, on Thursday urged the state licensing agency to ban Bulletproof from the state, saying they violated several rules, including one that requires guards to wear clearly visible badges or patches identifying them as security guards.

“It would not be unreasonable for a citizen to act in fear and refuse to obey, and perhaps even draw a weapon, on a person appearing from within the woods dressed in full camouflaged gear with his face covered, brandishing what looks like a military weapon,” Stella said in a letter to the state.

Bulletproof spokeswoman Stacy Pearson said the camouflage clothing has shoulder patches, but the guards’ striking appearance has a purpose.

“These guys aren’t Wal-Mart security guards,” Pearson said. “The nicer they look, the less effective they become. They are preventative by design. We’re trying to prevent the bad guys from seeing this as a target ripe for an attack.”

A state Department of Safety and Professional Services spokeswoman declined comment, but Gogebic spokesman Bob Seitz has said Bulletproof will obtain licenses and return within days.

Parrella said security will be needed, and his company is well qualified. He predicted that tactics of a few “eco-terrorists” will escalate as the mine project continues, while acknowledging that, except for the June 11 incident, there is little or no hard evidence of criminal activity.

“What they are trying to do or accomplish (now) is unknown,” Parrella said.

Parrella said guards have photographed illegal campsites on private land near the test drilling sites and found elevated spots where people have set up places to watch the sites.

“They couldn’t see that we were watching them,” Parrella said. “When the team made their presence known, they didn’t like that they could no longer sneak up on the drilling site without anybody holding them accountable.”

On Tuesday after a heavy rain, a guard watched a man wearing a black garbage bag sneaking through the woods, then lie on his back motionless for 30 minutes, even as guards spoke to him, Parrella said.

Eventually the man departed, and guards watched as he zigzagged away through the trees, Parrella said.

One day, guards saw a masked man holding an M-16 rifle while standing at attention a few miles from the drilling near a camp on public land being used by mine opponents, Parrella said.

He acknowledged that all of the behavior he cited could be essentially harmless, but his job is to prepare for the worst.

“For every hundred peaceful protesters, you probably get one or two rotten apples, and you just don’t know what they are going to do,” Parrella said.

Guards wear masks to avoid being photographed, not to intimidate anyone or to avoid accountability, he said.

“They really don’t want to have their faces posted all over radical websites,” Parrella said. “These are professional (former) soldiers and law enforcement officers who don’t need that kind of PR. They worry about who may be looking them up, who may be stalking their families.”

The 11-year-old company has handled high-profile assignments, sometimes jointly with federal agencies, guarding two Mexican presidents visiting the U.S., a former U.S. vice president and major infrastructure such as power plants, Parrella said.

He declined to provide other details, saying the company promises clients confidentiality.

Reporter covering politics with a focus on environmental issues.

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(373) comments

AllAmerican11B
AllAmerican11B

Holy cow, Fact or Fiction sure took this thread on a nose dive in the the abyss over the weekend!

Cornelius Gotchberg
Cornelius Gotchberg

@AA11B;

FACT!

And a lot of my spectacularly fragile and precariously dwindling self-esteem along with it.

The Gotch

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

Whatever. I'm sure you're encouraged by the other right wingers and won't give up the Titanic without a fight.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

Rather than a personal attack, how about sharing some insights about the story?

AllAmerican11B
AllAmerican11B

Fact or Fiction,
I have commented on the topic below and I am not the one that took the thread down the rabbit hole; that's a fact. In fact the ONLY direct reply you have made to my comments below is "Tisk, tisk - right?" and I'm not even sure if that comment was for me or GOOD DOG HAPPY MAN because you didn't have the courtesy to identify to whom you were speaking; that's a fact.

Just to make a point - if YOU have the audacity to call my comment above an attack, then almost every comment I've read that you've posted on this site is an attack; but yet, you think you can sit there and somehow justify that fact away; that's an opinion based on observed facts.

But of course, you'll attempt to label what I just wrote an attack; that was a reasonable assumption on my part based on your pattern of comments. Me stating observed facts that point out your hypocrisy is "of course" an attack on you but when YOU accuse others of the same thing or much, much worse, that's just your opinion and somehow not an attack and therefore beyond reproach; that's an observation based on your own words.

So, Fact or Fiction, was what I just wrote all "Fact" or "Fiction"?

Fartinthewind
Fartinthewind

For years the GOP has been winning elections by marketing a message that tells people (bitter white males) that our nation is changing, that the world as we know it is lost forever.

Well, me thinks the democrats are going to be able to co opt that message going forward. Assaults on women's reproductive choices, wages moving backwards, employer provided healthcare a thing of the past, progressive taxation. All things that are now part of a bygone era.

The GOP has opened a Pandora's box. Gogebic? They're just speeding things up.

michaelmcda
michaelmcda

A hastening towards the 5th and final stage perhaps?

AllAmerican11B
AllAmerican11B

Fartinthewind,
Was that phony "bitter white males" meme really necessary? As both sides have proven over the years, the rest of your comment is all fair game in election messages.

GOOD DOG HAPPY MAN
GOOD DOG HAPPY MAN

Pish-posh, @All-American11B, ....... rub some dirt on it, mano.

Be like a wise-old pachyderm, dawg. We elephants in the room have had to evolve and develop a little thicker epidermis over the years living inside the Tofu Curtain.
It is from where we get our name.

I, for one, wear it as a badge on honor. Gladly sufferring the slings and arrows of outrageous temporal fortune, I turn what is meant to be an hateful insult into lemonade. I'm proud of being one who stands on bedrock truths, foundational beliefs, principle and "clings to my God and my guns".

Remember your Marshall McLuhan, soldier, "The medium IS the message."

Be like Lady Maggie Thatcher. Relish and realize what she knew, "When one is called names and virulently attacked, your opponent has lost the argument and that's all they really have left."

@Prettyfartsmeller wasn't nasty about it. But, know that, when you're slinging mud, you're losing ground. It was descriptive in his mind and it is who he is.

Kinda' like Trayvon calling George a "crazy-assed cracker. It is who he was.

Grace and Peace.

Veritas vos liberabit.

Good Dog, Happy Man.


AllAmerican11B
AllAmerican11B

Good Dog Happy Man
With all due respect, you've missed the point of the post which I'm absolutely sure that Fartinthewind got. Fartinthewind has been harping about phony memes for a while and says it is entirely appropriate to call them out when they are found. I just chose to raise it as a question instead of the methods that others have used to point them out.

GOOD DOG HAPPY MAN
GOOD DOG HAPPY MAN

Dear AllAmerican,

Well, well done then. I think So Crates used the same method. I hate phony memes.

It's probably self-evident, but I can be thick as a brick and a bit obtuse. I'm not as street-smart, tech-savvy, sensitive or good-looking as I pretend to be. Plus, my self-esteem is down after dealing with our unnamed friend and sometimes spiritual vampire, who was able to suck all the joy, energy and and air from this forum.

I was amazed and delighted at the discretion and the light hand that the weekend Madison.com administrator used. After 364 comments It ranges far and wide. But it seems this forum is self-policing and the right-thinking opinionated individuals, the ladies and gentlemen who post here, I'd list 'em, but might miss some, are mostly good natured.

Free people living in a free country, freely expressing their thoughts. Holy Buckets! Doesn't get any better than thatanywhere in the world, AllAmerican.

Maybe Gotch has a quote for us, to sum up. He's a stitch, isn't he?

Good Dog, Happy Man.

Cornelius Gotchberg
Cornelius Gotchberg

@GDHM (below):

Careful what you ask for!

But to sum up Lefty's irrational view of their own tolerance, I'll throw it over to Judge Elihu Smails:

"Danny, I've sentenced boys younger than you to the gas chamber. Didn't want to do it. I felt I owed it to them."

As far as the inventory of your own...um...qualities, Who could say it better than Ty Webb:

"Don't sell yourself short Judge, you're a tremendous slouch."

The Gotch

GOOD DOG HAPPY MAN
GOOD DOG HAPPY MAN

@Gotch,

Righteous! Mano. First full throated out loud belly laugh I had all day. I think I scared Good Dog, she didn't say anything, but got up from her place in the lab and stretched again.

Lawdhafmerci, I love that dog.

If you search your memory, the first one was always the best. Then again if you remember the 60's, you didn't experience them.

Classic appreciation for fine movies. And I won't give up. Neither did Blutarsky, "When the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor, we didn't quit!"

Shows me. Stay strong. Peace Out.

Good Dog, Happy Man.

PS: Mrs. Good Dog is barking at me, " Go out and play!I!" Finally turned on the Air. Woofda! Too hot out for a big man. And between the moquites and the weeds, I dunno, those raspberries, framboises, will keep. See ya in the funny papers, dawg.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

Tisk, tisk - right?

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

Norwood44 - since you find my calling out the amazing coincidence that the ID "Blog Rating Meter" has not been used since February, but now, just out of the blue finds it necessary to attack my comments just at the moment you and Cornelious Gotchberg go on the offense - you find my association with you two and this incredible return of an unused ID a "conspiracy theory on my part" - I'm going to repeat my comment below right here at the top so you can personally address just four of the many "conspriacy theories" you've put out there for others to consider:

@ Norwood44's "The fact that you are now generating conspiracy theories about a little message board in a small midwest city makes me feel sad for you."

Then you must be sad for yourself. How about these for conspiracy therories, Norwalk44 - all penned by you at this site:

Norwood44: How about your theory that racist white teacher union members are conspiring against black and hispanic children and minorities in general profiting at the expense of minority children, when you stated,"Somehow predominantly white, educated, pensioned and protected mostly white union members bulging with vacation days are the ones who lay claim to victim status, when it is poor populations of color who are suffering

Norwood44: How about your theory that I am a paid lobbyist, conspiring to change public opinion when you offered this "Fact or Fiction. You are neither. You are a lobbyist. So your title should actually be My Facts. My Fiction.
Read more: http://host.madison.com/news/local/education/local_schools/school-political-leaders-rail-against-idea-of-vouchers-in-madison/article_a2e63e84-79bf-11e2-83cc-0019bb2963f4.html#ixzz2YxoCYx27

Norwood44: How about your theory that the staff of the supposedly "racist" Capital Times is conspiring to protect "white unionists" at the expense of people of color when you stated Here's a question for Madison's progressive news site. Do you have any people of color on your editorial board? Any black or hispanic journalists helping you form your positions? Fanlund and Nichols hold forth on all sorts of issues, but they always come down on the side of predominantly white unionists.

Norwood44: How about your theory that public school teachers are pampered and selfish and conspiring to put themselves ahead of the interests of the children they serve, when you stated "We cannot make our decisions based upon keeping teachers pampered, comfortable and free from accountability, innovation or hard work.

Cornelius Gotchberg
Cornelius Gotchberg

@Fof;

With all due respect, you're starting to make 'unhinged' look like safe haven.

The Gotch

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ Cornelious Gotchberg. Same to you. Thanks for yet another ad hominem personal attack. Now, do you agree with all of Norwood44's conspiracy therories? Your silence is tacit approval.

An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an argument made personally against an opponent instead of against their argument.[2] Ad hominem reasoning is normally described as an informal fallacy,[3][4][5] more precisely an irrelevance.[6]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Norwood44
Norwood44

Fiction.Nothing that has been posted qualifies under this definition. Best proof? None of my posts have been censored by the moderator. You don't qualify as an agrieved party under this definition, especially given that you throw around the word "facist" in most of your posts. You are biased, inflammatory, not a moderator, and a false authority. Have a nice day.

Norwood44
Norwood44

Cornelius. I am a little worried about Fiction. He seems off his feed. He's gone round the bend. He is catty wampus. He doesn't know shirt from shinola. These are all sayings my dad had. They have never been more appropriate. By the way Fiction, I stand by everything that I wrote or asked. All of it. Happy to debate it anytime. And I am not alone. Why do you think there are calls for school reform from all sides of the aisle, all over America? You are defending a system that is failing too many kids. We need merit pay for teachers, and we need to be able to fire bad teachers. Not every teacher is a good teacher. Simple math will tell you that. Good teachers should support reform, but their union bosses will have none of it. They just want teachers to play the victim. Just as you do on most every post. And now, cry fascist, or claim I work for ALEC or the Koch brothers. That is the art of distraction you so clumsily play on this topic. But no one buys it. OK, get ready. Aaaand cry fascist....right...now.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ Norwood44 - why don't you address the conspiracy theories that you created (see above). I think maybe those paranoid, insulting, and hateful comments would be described as more than a little unbalanced. You ought to be worried about yourself, Norwood44, not the people who point out your illogical comments.

OK, get ready, Aaaand cry "Unions are evil!" It's what you do. Doubt it, Norwood44. I refer you again to your conspiracy therories, see above.

Norwood44
Norwood44

Gotch. Do you see how Fiction uses italics and bold? Wow. She's not much of a writer,but she sure is a good word processor.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ Cornelius Gotchberg
Are you role playing a psychogist tonight too? No wonder Norwood44 refers to you as his "teammate".

How about role playing a physician? Norwood44 could be Bugs Bunny and say "What's up, Doc?". That would keep you two wild & crazy guys in stitches (forgive the pun, Doc) for hours!

Norwood44
Norwood44

Fiction. Settle down. Step away from the keyboard. All will be well. There is no conspiracy. Go watch firelies and take deep breaths. Seriously.

Blog-Rating-Meter
Blog-Rating-Meter

WOW, Fact or Fiction - get a grip!

I haven't commented since February because I haven't been on here much since then and I rarely choose to comment when I do read things here; unlike others like you that seem to live on these websites. I choose to have a life without getting involved in the seemingly endless hateful arguments you and your blogging buddies plaster in these articles. You choose to render your "Fact" or "Fiction" judgements on others in a very partisan selective way and I've actually seen you openly call some things fiction when they are actually facts, doesn't that make you some sort of partisan liar. I thought it would be fun to do something a bit different thus stepping on your partisan blogging toes once in a while to see how you like it - they deserve every agonizing pound of blogging pressure that can be applied from any blogging source - enjoy the attention.

As for your claim that I am Norwood44...

0 = Non-Existent
10 = Maximum Level
BS = Beyond Scale

Truth-O-Meter = 0
Fact-O-Meter = 0
Fraud-O -Meter = BS
Deceive-O-Meter = BS
Informed-O-Meter = BS
Intellect-O-Meter = BS
Assume-O-Meter = BS
Insult-O-Meter = 0
Detail-O-Meter = BS
Sarcasm-O-Meter = 0
Humor-O-Meter = 0
OnTopic-O-Meter = 0
OverAll-O-Meter = BS

The Blog Rater has spoken.

You don't seem to like it much and complain quite a bit when someone judges your comments, so you judging others comments kinda makes you a hypocrite and a whiner.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ Blog Raters "You don't seem to like it much and complain quite a bit when someone judges your comments, so you judging others comments kinda makes you a hypocrite and a whiner."

You completely miss the point, and I don't know if that's intentional or not. My complaint is not about criticism of my comments - it's about criticism of my character. It's been done with lies, to which I also object.

So if you approve of lies and character attacks, done with relentless ad hominem fallacies, then I can see why you think the way I've been treated is clever.

Cornelius Gotchberg
Cornelius Gotchberg

@Blog-Rating-Meter;

FACT!!!!!!!!!!!!

The Gotch

FiveHole
FiveHole

Jauch says the guards are needlessly intimidating and potentially dangerous but refers to the out of control psychos in masks as mere idiots. This group stole, vandalized, threatened, screamed at and swore at a group of people who posed zero threat to them. These eco-terrorists are obviously unstable, dangerous and in need of mental health care but Jauch continues to focus on the guards.

I wonder if Jauch would feel differently if a group of masked "idiots" came into his work place and behaved the exact same way? Would he see a guard placed near his office as needlessly intimidating and potentially dangerous?

The safety of workers should trump Jauch's feeling about mining. Since Jauch is an elected official himself, one would think he would have respect for the process that allowed the mine to move forward in his district in the first place. The eco-nuts are not the only idiots in this saga.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ FiveHole's "I wonder if Jauch would feel differently if a group of masked "idiots" came into his work place and behaved the exact same way? Would he see a guard placed near his office as needlessly intimidating and potentially dangerous?

Good point.

What if people entered the chamber of the state capital and put tape over their mouths to protest the silencing of their voices by the Republican Legislature. What if these same people where threatened with arrest for that action of civil protest, and had to remove the tape from their mouths. That's what its come to in Wisconsin - the complete abridgement of the second ammendment and the right to protest. The actions of the mine protesters were extreme and it appears illegal. But what about silent protest? Now even that is not allowed by these Republican fascist legislators and our fascist Republican dictator governor, Scott Walker.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/06/14/1216158/-In-Wisconsin-Silence-Will-Not-Be-Tolerated

Or maybe the fascist Republican legislators were afraid the duct tape would be used to hang up posters and cost over 7 million dollars in damages that they lied about during the 2011 Act 10 protests?

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ Norwood44 and Cornelius Gotchberg.

One of you guys needs to come clean about owning the ID "Blog-Rating-Meter". It's no coincidence that this ID, unused since February 20, 2013, is back riding me and "rating" the posts of Norwood44 and Cornelius Gotchberg with 100% "approval ratings".

Please. Fight your own fights instead of using bogus IDs to make it look like either of you have any credibility whatsoever.

BS like you are up to today makes the FACT or FICTION ratings of your posts all the more necessary.

Cornelius Gotchberg
Cornelius Gotchberg

@FoF;

"...is back riding me and "rating" the posts.." Wow! you can dish it out but you completely fall to pieces when someone turns the tables.

Read more: http://host.madison.com/tncms/asset/editorial/d31fc4ae-afb4-545a-851a-1942e24edc15/#ixzz2YwzvTIkU

Good Lord you get flustered easily! Why do Lefties take themselves so gosh darn seriously. It's like getting accidently cut off in traffic (on your BIKIE). The guy that did it forgets about it and goes on with his day. You? you simmer and stew and take it personally and let it screw up your entire existance.

I will honestly tell you I am not @Blog-Rating-Meter. Heck; I just want to stay out of his/her way. My fragile ego is already near the edge. One needs to look for no further proof than here of how a rating can put someone into a tailspin.

Now, I can't speak for @Norwood44. To paraphrase Dean Wormer, he/she's a sneaky little s**t, just like Neidermeyer. (kidding Norwood!)

Just out of curiosity, how often do you report abuse? I've never done, nor will I. I'm just not that freakin' perpetually offended. Try it sometime, it may lessen that furrow in your brow and those veins on your pate.

Might just be time for a new conspiracy theory; paging Jesse Ventura.

The Gotch

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ Cornelius Gotchberg - Calling someone out for an obvious dual-ID, is not exactly "falling to pieces". Pointing out the complete hypocrisy of yourself or Norwood44 crying foul when your invalid arguments are countered is not exactly "falling to pieces". It's called taking a stand for the truth.

Sadly when you and your buddy receive valid criticism the intolerance toward that criticism is vehemently toxic.

If either of you don't like your arguments being criticized, and instead resort to personal ad hominem attacks, you'll be called out on it. Don't like it? Then post on some other forum.

Cornelius Gotchberg
Cornelius Gotchberg

@FoF;

I don't like those mine protesters using such bad language.

On another subject, which you've latched on to in a most troubling manner.

"It's called taking a stand for the truth." Yikes!!

When you're right, you're right. "Falling to pieces" really doesn't it justice.

Paul Blart: Mall Cop, Fact or Fiction: Forum Foreman.

"Then post on some other forum." Physician; heal thyself!"

As always, your Pal!

The Gotch

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

Cornelious, maybe a nap a or good night's rest will help you. You're all over the place in your comments and none of it is making any sense.

Cornelius Gotchberg
Cornelius Gotchberg

@FoF;

You're unable to discern my comments and it's my fault; got it!

I mentioned earlier that it is my heartfelt intention to make a genuine effort to more gently meter my comments for the mentality upon which they're presented.

There's only one 'O' in Cornelius, and why not just call me Gotch.

The Gotch

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ Cornelius Gotchberg's "You're unable to discern my comments and it's my fault; got it!

I got your sarcasm too, Cornelious. At least that wasn't written in Gibberish, so it looks like you really are capable of writing in plain English - when you choose to do so. Nice to see you take note of spelling errors too - you reallly are learning English!


Norwood44
Norwood44

First of all Fiction, your assumption that I have something to do with a dual ID is false. It IS possible that more than one person finds your whole bit to be insipid. Secondly, Gotch isn't my buddy. Never met the guy. He is just another board member tired of your act. I like his writing and wry wit, but I suspect we differ on some issues. But in this we are teammates, we don't like your false act. You are not an expert. Don't pretend to be one. You are not the moderator. Don't pretend to be it. And you are not the target of ad hominem attacks or a dual ID scam. In the immortal words of Tom Waits, "Get down off your cross, we need the nails." Now, go. You are recused, and excused.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

Norwood44 - by "buddy" it means you two are teaming up. Not that you two go bowling together. As you say yourself "we two are teammates"

Sorry you don't like to be held accountable for your lies. That's not "moderating" that's debate. As for the ad hominem attacks, they have been frequent on your part, such as yesterday calling me a "union troll". If that is not an ad hominem attack what is it?

Speaking of high horse attitude, you now see fit to "recuse and excuse". Why thank you, your honor. I'll try my best to speak more respectfully in your courtroom, judge.

Norwood44
Norwood44

Fiction. I have nothing to do with blog o meter. The fact that you are now generating conspiracy theories about a little message board in a small midwest city makes me feel sad for you. I'll lay off you for a while. Go for a walk. Get some air.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ Norwood44's "The fact that you are now generating conspiracy theories about a little message board in a small midwest city makes me feel sad for you."

Then you must be sad for yourself. How about these for conspiracy therories, Norwalk44 - all penned by you at this site:

Norwood44: How about your theory that racist white teacher union members are conspiring against black and hispanic children and minorities in general profiting at the expense of minority children, when you stated,"Somehow predominantly white, educated, pensioned and protected mostly white union members bulging with vacation days are the ones who lay claim to victim status, when it is poor populations of color who are suffering

Norwood44: How about your theory that I am a paid lobbyist, conspiring to change public opinion when you offered this "Fact or Fiction. You are neither. You are a lobbyist. So your title should actually be My Facts. My Fiction.
Read more: http://host.madison.com/news/local/education/local_schools/school-political-leaders-rail-against-idea-of-vouchers-in-madison/article_a2e63e84-79bf-11e2-83cc-0019bb2963f4.html#ixzz2YxoCYx27

Norwood44: How about your theory that the staff of the supposedly "racist" Capital Times is conspiring to protect "white unionists" at the expense of people of color when you stated Here's a question for Madison's progressive news site. Do you have any people of color on your editorial board? Any black or hispanic journalists helping you form your positions? Fanlund and Nichols hold forth on all sorts of issues, but they always come down on the side of predominantly white unionists.

Norwood44: How about your theory that public school teachers are pampered and selfish and conspiring to put themselves ahead of the interests of the children they serve, when you stated "We cannot make our decisions based upon keeping teachers pampered, comfortable and free from accountability, innovation or hard work.


gdp
gdp

The problem isn't the guards. Back in the 60s, the radical kook professors (Marcuse, et al) instigated Wisconsin violence resulting in murder. Now we have environmental hooliganism, but at least vigilantism, gesturing to the use of force. The governor was right in his remarks, and the company justified in taking suitable precaution. The woman should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law to send the correct message. And the lawyer should button up.

Reply
Reply

Controversial issues and protests go hand-in-hand ... always have, always will. And with it comes a certain small percentage of extremists hellbent on anarchy. This is something security providers must take into account.

The capitol protests were an excellent example of how to do things right. Deputies & officers from law enforcement agencies across the state were brought in. They presented themselves and performed professionally & respectfully, and crowds numbering well into the tens-of-thousands were managed with very few adverse incidents. Riotous mob-mentality could easily have erupted, but it didn't. Crowd size also helped in that the peaceful intentions of the vast majority "diluted" or discouraged deviant extremism.

Then we have this mess upstate. A handful of deviants and someone makes a decision to bring in a platoon of Rambo wannabees. I'm not challenging GTec's right to protect its workers & assets, including employment of armed guards. The problem is their GI-Joe response will only incite more protesters to become more aggressive. That's what these people live for.

Everyone has to realize that extremists on the fringe of any issue will stop at nothing to grab their proverbial 15 minutes in the spotlight. Think Eric Rudolph or Ted Kaczynski ... figureheads of the dangers of the radical fringe. Recall, too, that about 10-years ago there was grave concern that anarchists were planning to descend on Madison's Halloween fest for the sole intention of wreaking as much havoc as possible.

Flamboyant reactions as dressing mall cops up like Army warriors may deter some protesters, but will only invite more problems from the fringe elements.

aspire
aspire

Maybe we should have the guards where dresses.

Mad-son
Mad-son

"Those people" are not necessarily predisposed. They tend to turn up when there is little to no chance of resolving things peacefully and when people feel they have not been considered to have equal say, when they are the ones directly affected. .

In accepting the Republican Party presidential nomination in 1964, Senator Barry Goldwater said, "Extremism in the defense of freedom is no vice; moderation in the pursuit of liberty is no virtue."

It may not seem like it, but it does have some applicablity in the Northwoods. The fact that most Americans prefer a quieter (and longer path), does not always work to resolve things. What was done in that video was certainly not as extreme as what's going to be done to the land.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ gdp's "The problem isn't the guards. Back in the 60s, the radical kook professors (Marcuse, et al) instigated Wisconsin violence resulting in murder."

That's quite a stretch to blame liberal (radical) University of Wisconsin Madison professors for the bombings that occured in 1970 and resulted in the unintentional death of a reseacher. I've never seen anything about that incident tying it to professors or that any charges were made on professors, or any reason why professors would want to see a university building bombed.

But as long as you're pushing the cause, how do you feel about Republican pundit Sarah Palin literally targeting Gabby Giffords along with the twitter feed wording by Palin "Don't retreat. Instead - RELOAD!" ?

It is quite possible that Governor Walker - through his approval of paramiltary, heavily armed, masked guards at the mining site - is escalating the chance for violence in the same way Sarah Palin did prior to the Gabby Gifford tragedy.

Here is a news story following the incident:
We do not yet know what prompted 22-year-old accused gunman Jared Loughner to allegedly shoot Rep. Gabrielle Giffords (D-Ariz.) and others, including a child and federal judge who died from their wounds.

But critics of Sarah Palin have already drawn a link between the shooting and the fact that the former Alaska governor put Giffords on a "target list" of lawmakers Palin wanted to see unseated in the midterm elections.

In March, Palin released a map featuring 20 House Democrats that used crosshairs images to show their districts. (You can see it here.) Critics suggested at the time that she was inciting violence by using the crosshairs imagery and for later writing on Twitter to her supporters, "'Don't Retreat, Instead - RELOAD!'"

Norwood44
Norwood44

gdp. The Viet Nam War might have had something to do with the violent protests too.
Opposition to that war doesn't make you a kook. But what did happen is what you saw from the eco activists in the video....a sense of absolutism. The notion anything you do is justified because they KNOW they are right. God save us all from people who are absolutely sure they are right.

Blog-Rating-Meter
Blog-Rating-Meter

@Norwood44

Meter Scale
0 = Non-Existent
10 = Maximum Level
BS = Beyond Scale

Truth-O-Meter = 10
Fact-O-Meter = 10
Fraud-O -Meter = 0
Deceive-O-Meter = 0
Informed-O-Meter = 10
Intellect-O-Meter = 10
Assume-O-Meter = 0
Insult-Meter = 0
Detail-O-Meter = 10
Sarcasm-O-Meter = 0
Humor-O-Meter = 0
OnTopic-O-Meter = 10
OverAll-O-Meter = 10

The Blog Rater has spoken.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ Blog-Rating-Meter (below) - Lucky you. In this case, since you agree with Norwood44, it is OK to comment on the validity of his comments.

Cornelius Gotchberg
Cornelius Gotchberg

@FoF (below);

"...since you agree with..."

FACT:
That there is the sole criterion for YOUR rating system!

The Gotch

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

Cornelius Gotchberg - I know you would like for that to be true, but let's stay with the truth instead. First, you're not immune from criticism. Second much of the criticism directed at your comments is valid. Third. Ouch! No one likes to be crticized. Fourth. If you take offense to being criticized for your invalid comments then maybe you shouldn't be here so much. Or TRY POSTING VALID COMMENTS rather than the idiot gibberish full of coded conserva-speak. OK?

Norwood44
Norwood44

Fiction. I made no statement regarding Blog o Meter, but since you ask, I have no problem with the bit. He or she is funny and clever. You're not. Your comments are shrill,officious, biased and self-pitying. You post at others like you're grading middle school papers. And you run to the principal's office every ten minutes because you don't like what people say after you've thrown around the word "fascist'. Make your point. Debate like an adult. Quit wimpering and pretending you are smarter than others. Tell you what. Make some good posts. Then we'll determine if you're smart. Thus far, you're flunking. For instance, you can't post anonymously and refer to another anonymous post on another blog as a legit reference. Which you did during the exchanges over the Penokee incident. A moron knows better. Would the NYT do such a thing? No. They wouldn't. You are recused.

Norwood44
Norwood44

I, for one, find Mr. Gotchberg's writing to be much better than Fiction's. Gotchberg is clever, mature, fun and intelligently cryptic. Fiction's work is whiny, self-righteous, flat and humorless. Gotchberg does not pretend to be an authority. Instead, he pokes the self-important. Fiction's posts, on the other hand, reek of pomposity and political myopia. Gotchberg wins. Fiction is recused. Or voted off the island.. Whichever she prefers.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ Norwood44's "I, for one, find Mr. Gotchberg's writing to be much better than Fiction's. Gotchberg is clever, mature, fun and intelligently cryptic. Fiction's work is whiny, self-righteous, flat and humorless. Gotchberg does not pretend to be an authority. Instead, he pokes the self-important. Fiction's posts, on the other hand, reek of pomposity and political myopia. Gotchberg wins. Fiction is recused. Or voted off the island.. Whichever she prefers.

It's nice that you and your alter ego get along so well. Now explain what part of your statement has anything at all to do with the Gogebic story, and what part of your statement is not an ad hominem personal attack. Answers: Not a thing, and Not a thing.


Norwood44
Norwood44

Fiction. Happy to explain. First, my post had everything to do with how we discuss all topics. You aren't the moderator. So stop. You don't know what an ad hominem attack is. So stop. Secondly, I didn't attack you. I attacked your poor writing, reasoning and false facade. It is quite possible that you are a tremendous person. But your writing does not reflect it. Now go for a walk and call the first Republican you see a "fascist". Then let them judge what a wonderful person you are.

Traderjoe
Traderjoe

That Palin reference has been proven irrelevant to Giffords and is totally irresponsible to regurgitate that trash here.

Included in that article was this statement "A Palin aide, meanwhile, called it "obscene" and "appalling" to blame Palin for the shooting."

The target was an obvious reference to Distracts which Democrats had won by thin margins and would be Targeted for a possible takeover by Republicans.

I know some people cannot help that their intelligence level does not permit them to fully comprehend the obvious, but this is typical hyper Hyperbole and out and out a lie! Shame Shame Shame...

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ Traderjoe's That Palin reference has been proven irrelevant to Giffords and is totally irresponsible to regurgitate that trash here.

The trash, my friend, was served by Sarah Palin herself, and is relevent because it shows the tolerance the Republican Party leadership has for such dangerous, hateful, and provocative comments such as Palin's. That's really special that a Palin aide objected to blaming Palin for the shooting - the aide's comment was a straw man argument: correlating Palin's comment is not the same thing as "blaming" Palin for the shooting.

You say "The target was an obvious reference to Distracts which Democrats had won by thin margins and would be Targeted for a possible takeover by Republicans.
Sarah Palin says""'Don't Retreat, Instead - RELOAD!'"

So either you are missing Sarah's gun language, that ended up being associated with a gun crime on one of her targets, and innocent bystanders including a child, or you're making excuses for Palin.

BEFORE Giffords was shot she spoke out about what Palin had done - so obviously the victim of the crime made a causal connection: Here is Giffords Husband speaking about it:
“Yeah, that’s my plan. You know, this was no surprise to us. Gabby even spoke about it before January 8th, during the election cycle, leading up to the election, in an interview. I think it might have been on MSNBC or some other — another cable news network. She made is very clear that, hey, this is what’s going on, and this could ultimately incite people to do violent things. So it wasn’t a big surprise on January 8th that — you know, that we — you know, where we knew this map existed with the cross-hairs on it. Now, having said that, you know, Sarah Palin certainly is not responsible for what happened. But I think the angry rhetoric in an election year is not — it’s not helpful.”

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/gabby-giffordss-husband-mark-kelly-tells-piers-morgan-that-sarah-palin-never-contacted-him/


Read more: http://host.madison.com/tncms/asset/editorial/d31fc4ae-afb4-545a-851a-1942e24edc15/#ixzz2YwW3KMUO


human
human

GTac and the Governor are taking a fairly minor incident (grabbing a cellphone, a few F-words, some minor vandalism) and using it as a pretext to militarize the conflict.
I suspect they want to provoke some real violence, which they would use to justify the equivalent of martial law in the area. After all, if the area is beset by terrorists, we can afford to allow people to enter the land to see what GTac is doing or to express their opinions -- even peacefully about the mine. Everything will be done in secret -- for security reasons, of course -- and the counties, the towns and the Bad River tribe will be cut out of decision-making, completely.

The Native Americans, who are leading the protests, and their white allies, are smart people, and they know that any real violence would be a disaster for the campaign against the mine. They have criticized the actions of the anarchist wannabes in the video, and they have urged people to be peaceful and constructive. If there is any violence, it will come from GTac, Walker, and friends. They have no scruples.

Remember the phone call between Walker and "fake David Koch?" "Koch" suggested staging a violent incident at the Capitol and blaming the protesters. Walker said "we thought of that" but feared it would backfire. What happens if they think they can get away with it this time?

human
human

The New Years Gang were not radical political theorists, and they didn't listen to "kook professors. Karl and Dwight Armstrong were not even students. But they participated in demonstrations, and got clubbed and tear gassed by out-of-control cops. Eventually they decided they weren't going to let that happen any more, and they turned to violence -- with tragic results.

So it wasn't Marcuse (by the way, have you ever read Marcuse?) -- it was Wilbur Emery and his friends, who turned a political conflict into a war at home. Will history be repeated up north?

Norwood44
Norwood44

Human. Did the police bomb student gatherings? Were any students killed during the Madison protests? No. The Armstrongs escalated the era to the death of Robert Fasnacht. No one else. Did the police go too far? Yes, especially in the earliest phase Dow protest . But Madison police actually got LESS violent as the protest era evolved. Not so with the NYG. They killed someone. They used lethal force.No one else did. They own that. Your argument, that the Armstrongs were somehow justified in taking a life because some students got gassed is the same flawed logic of Heimsness and the Zimmerman defense.

Mad-son
Mad-son

What happended before that? Kent State, Jackson State, CONTELPRO. This was far bigger than Madison. People were killed and lives were ruined by the Feds and their proxies.

The Armstrong's escalated nothing. They were right in the middle of it. They did not set out to deliberately kill anyone. That's why they did it on a Sunday night at around 3AM.

The Army math research center was indirectly responsible for killing a lot of people too. Just because they were not Americans, does not excuse it either.

Rewriting history is not going to make your position stronger.

Norwood44
Norwood44

Ah Madson...but they DID kill someone. With a huge bomb, very similar to TIm McVey's. And their act took the legs out of the anti war movement because they used violence to protest violence. Which smelled bad to a lot of us. I saw Karleton the other day. He was golfing at Odana. I wonder if Professor Fasnacht liked to golf. Well he can't now, can he?

TS78
TS78

An even more bizarre act will be when GTac starts hiring Wisconsinites to work at/around the site. Why not a Wisconsin security firm? Because GTac owes our state nothing. This whole thing has already been bought and paid for. GTac will bring most of its workforce from out of state. Why? Because they owe us nothing. I have a relative who used to work for a Wisconsin security firm who was just beside himself when he found out GTac hired this Arizona team. I told him to call his governor. After all, he owes us 250,000 good paying jobs.

they are a national company and are using a firm they are familiar with. MYOB

TS78
TS78

It's good to know where you stand concerning job outsourcing up north. It will always be a part of our business up here.

Harvey
Harvey

"Bizarre and Alarming acts." Heard it before. "The next terrorist act could be a mushroom cloud." Typical conservative M.O. Scare the bjesus out of people and then offer a military solution.

I suggest the people up there refuse to rent to them, sell them food or gas or serve them in restaurants. The same goes for all mine employees.

Not made up, but based on actual comments and threats from their site.

Harvey
Harvey

These "guards" couldn't make a career in the military (I wonder how many were dishonorably discharged) or as a police officer or as a Secret Service Agent or as a DNR warden or as a member of Black Water or even as a mall cop. These are the dregs. The social misfits. The bottom of the barrel. They got tired of patrolling the Arizona/Mexican border so they were sent to the north woods. Take care protesters. These "guards" with belt fed machine guns are a quart low in the brain department and are eager to act the part.

You have no idea who they are. They might be very nice guys and have families and are most likely honorably discharged. Don't make up stuff to attempt to back up your narrative.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ middleoftheroad: FACT

Norwood44
Norwood44

Or perhaps they served in Afghanistan and unseated a government that helped take down the Trade Towers, killed thousands of Americans, and on the weekends held public executions of women in their soccer stadium. But go ahead Harv, demonize people you don't know with information you don't have. And call them dumb, while you peddle ignorance.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

I actually agree with Norwood44 on this one. In this case the fallacious ad hominem comment is by Harvey.

Typical ad hominem atttack by the usual perpetrator

An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an argument made personally against an opponent instead of against their argument.[2] Ad hominem reasoning is normally described as an informal fallacy,[3][4][5] more precisely an irrelevance.[6]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Norwood44
Norwood44

Fiction. I had four years of Latin, but thanks for the definition. That being said, you aren't the moderator. You don't get to define how people speak on these topics. What you see as an ad hominen attack is clearly not shared by the moderator or others on the board. It is interesting that you want to define both what is truth AND what people can write. Guess what? Not your job. You don't get to scold us with petty lectures without blowback. You are not qualified or empowered to do it. Put your your opinion out there and defend it just like the rest of us. But don't pretend you are the arbiter of truth or board decorum. You are neither. It is a cheap ploy. I intend to point this out regularly, for the sake of intelligent debate and justice for all. Of course you can make your case. But stop pretending to be an authority. It is an intellectually weak position meant to stifle free discussion, which is the beauty of the web and these boards. You are without portfolio and should be treated as such. So...I have found you to be in violation of the Thought Police Code. You are recused. ( I am actually not empowered to do this, but until you stop the Fact or Fiction charade, this will continue. Your bit deserves to be lampooned at every turn. Share your opinion. But save the scolds for your dog.)

Cornelius Gotchberg
Cornelius Gotchberg

@Norwood44 (below);

FACT!!!!!

The Gotch

Blog-Rating-Meter
Blog-Rating-Meter

@Norwood44 (below)

Truth-O-Meter = 10
Fact-O-Meter = 10
Fraud-O -Meter = 0
Deceive-O-Meter = 0
Informed-O-Meter = 10
Intellect-O-Meter = 10
Assume-O-Meter = 0
Insult-Meter = 2
Detail-O-Meter = 8
Sarcasm-O-Meter = 4
Humor-O-Meter = 2
OnTopic-O-Meter = 0
OverAll-O-Meter = 8.75

Meter Scale
0 = Non-Existent
10 = Maximum Level
BS = Beyond Scale

The Blog Rater has spoken.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ Norwood44 (below) Thanks for moderating my comment. Now follow your own advice hypocrite. And by the way, when you or anyone else posts lies here you'll be called on it. Count on it.

Norwood44
Norwood44

Fiction. You called me a hypocrite. That is an ad hominem attack. But I won't report you. I'm a big boy. Oh, just curious, how is it possible to make an ad hominem attack when everyone is posting under a nom de plume? Is it possible to attack a non-person? For all any of us know, you could be Scott Walker. It would actually be a brilliant play by him, because your posts cost the Dems smart, independent voters. At least that's my opinion, which I am allowed to post. Your penchant for calling people "fascists" and then whining if someone identifies your posts as a clumsy deceit, intellectually shallow, and biased is pretty pitiful. It's interesting how you hate being recused, even though you have made yourself a false authority on this board for more than a year. False, biased authority deserves mockery. You brought it on yourself. Now, call me a fascist, report me and whine. It's your thing.

robertsthc
robertsthc

Finally got around to watching the video. Wow. Wish one of the workers would have taken their shovel and beat the crap out of a couple of those arrogant jerks. Hope Kloth gets prison time.

AllAmerican11B
AllAmerican11B

robertsthc,
"Wish one of the workers would have taken their shovel and beat the crap out of a couple of those arrogant jerks."

You are dead wrong; that is EXACTLY the kind of response that the eco-thugs want! Short of stepping in and helping the woman prevent the theft, the workers did pretty much exactly what they should have done, nothing.

There ARE appropriate and quite effective non-violent reverse tactics that can be used against such an onslaught of eco-thugs.

P.S. They should throw every possible book at the female that stole the camera and YES the actions the female took while stealing the camera could very well be considered an assault and they would NOT be considered an aggravated assault. If I were the woman who's camera was taken, I'd sue the pants off the female thug in civil court.

1blueheron
1blueheron

There's nothing at all American about removing us state by state from the union for the despotic corporate rule of global corporations bringing the environment of their favorite business partner Communist China to Wisconsin.

AllAmerican11B
AllAmerican11B

You MUST have been replying to someone else because what you wrote has absolutely NOTHING to do with what either robertsthc or I wrote.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

1blueheron - you make good points, but they have NOTHING to do with what AllAamerican11B just wrote.

Word
Word

Protestors don't help their cause, whether its the environment or the presence of heavily armed, camo'd, out-of-state guards in the North woods. None of this is positive. All of it detracts from the serious policy issues that should be openly debated and decided.

My own distracting thought is, what happened to the jobs for Wisconsin citizens idea? Don't we have any security firms here who could handle the business? Or do we need the Arizona gun nut culture to put a fine point on the message?

Norwood44
Norwood44

The state should not abdicate law enforcement to a private corporation. The DNR or state troopers should be there. The friction between private security forces and violent eco acticists is recipe for disaster. Neither offers the force of legitimate law. This is a big screw up by Walker and state authorities. They need to act quickly and smartly to turn down the temperature.

lute
lute

Considering that in the Banana Republic of Wisconsin the DNR and the State Patrol are headed by Walker loyalists Cathy Stepp and Steve Fitzgerald, it is absolutely no surprise that those agencies are neutered in this situation. A big part of what this is about is privatization, intimidation, and hurting anyone who disagrees with the right wing steam roller making its way over our state. I don't think it's a screw up- I think it's what they want.

Traderjoe
Traderjoe

That "right wing steamroller" is more like a downhill snowball gaining momentum and size and power. It is heading straight for that Madison " Dome" of liberalism. Surely you can see and feel it bearing down on you ....

Norwood44
Norwood44

lute. You should have more faith in the voters of Wisconsin. The Dems own some of this. They ran a weak candidate. Walker is George Bush, the worst president in living memory. The Dems lost to him twice, all the while calling him stupid. If you can't beat someone who is stupid, that means, though he may be dumb, he's smarter than you.

Agreed. I felt the same way during the capital protests and was afraid something more serious would happen. it didn't and I doubt it will here, but the police should be on alert and involved.

Norwood44
Norwood44

correction."activists".

Norwood44
Norwood44

This entire situation is troubling. Not because tests are being done for a possible mine, but because this opens up another chapter of discord for the state. Walker has the votes, but he has not used his post smartly. Leaders communicate. They explain. They bring people together. He doesn't. Big mistake. Clearly he has made powerful enemies with ACT 10, but if he doesn't get ahead of the mine issue he will find himself even more vulnerable. Restructuring union deals is one thing. It was supported by vote in the recall. But playing lose with the state's natural resources is another thing altogether. Pretty tone deaf. And the mining company, despite the violent acts of the protesters, didn't get ahead of the story either. A mess. One that Walker has to own. His administration is becoming the gang that can't shoot straight.

Presidents 3
Presidents 3

Norwood44 hits the nail on the head. Thomas Jefferson once said that "people get the sort of government they deserve". I do not prefer one party over another. What I do prefer is leadership that distinguishes itself with excellence in due diligence.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ Norwood44's "Restructuring union deals is one thing. It was supported by vote in the recall."

The alternative explanation and just a valid, is that both Tom Barrett and Barack Obama avoided the Act 10 / Union rights issue like the plague - Barrett did NOT run on that issue in the recall, and Obama, breaking his 2008 campaign promise never showed up to support the public service unions. Since Walker raised $30 million dollars to Barretts $5 million dollars, and much of Walkers money (17 of his top 18 donors were out-of-state billionaires) was from out-of-state we really cannot say that the 2012 recall election was the same as public referendum on Act 10 or destroying the rights of union members. At a few months before the recall, the Marqette University polls showed evenly split on collective bargaining rights for public servants: https://law.marquette.edu/poll/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/MLSPJanToplines.pdf

Norwood44
Norwood44

Fiction. Good point. But ask yourself, Why did Obama avoid the issue? Why did most of the national Dem party? Because it was bad strategy in the middle of the worst economy in nearly a century. The private sector makes up over 85% of the electorate. So they chose to speak to them. Also, you can't mention Walker fundraising without acknowledging the cumulative WEAC cash over the last two decades that gave the unions their unbalanced, fat contracts. Both the Kochs and WEAC play the bribe game big time. WEAC collected 26 million in dues in 2010 alone, and used nearly 20 million for lobbying and campaign contributions, solely to state Dems. If you total WEAC political cash over the last twenty years, they make the Koch brothers look like pikers.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

Norwood44 - Where's your evidence? Fat contracts? Nonsense. WEAC members have been under assault by the State Government for 20 years. Do yourself a favor and read up on QEO law, put in place by Tommy Thompson in 1993. It serverely restricted the the ability of public schools to raise funds, has has resulted in employee raises limited to 3.2% or the rate of inflation, which ever is lower for 20 years!

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

Norwood44
Norwood44

Evidence. WEAC dues in 2010 were 26 million per JSonline. Search any objective source. WEAC was the top political donor for twenty years. Common knowledge. Here is how I define a fat contract. In Madison in 2010, when less than half of African American male students graduated on time, not one teacher out of the 2700 in the employ of the MMSD was dismissed for any reason. Not one single teacher. That spells protectionism of the first order. Teachers grade students every day, but somehow we can't make bad teachers accountable. Bad contract contributs to bad outcomes for students. And I do know what I am talking about. And so do the thousands of people all over America who are looking for educational reform in the face of union opposition, including Dems Arne Duncan and Rahm Emmanuel.

JBANK
JBANK

So much for winning the public relations battle. No lessons were learned in the past three years. The general public doesn't support these types of tactics. Wrong approach. Education on the issues at hand is essential. Hurling verbal abuse, etc., only makes the job tougher going forward.

koala
koala

Paranoia runs deep ...

snootyelites
snootyelites

State Journal's coverage of the mine is nothing short of a sympathetic portrayal of Wisconsin Eco-Al Queda is stunning. These protestors are dangerous and there is nothing bizarre about their actions. They have no regard for working men & women. When do you call a spade a spade. What these people are against is not the mine but progress. They can go to court, legislature of write governor, EPA etc. The mining company should be given RPGs not AR 15s. Where is the law enforcement! These workers clearly need protection from intimidation. This tape clearly shows felonious conduct. Where is the DA? Ecoterrorists are running wild in the north woods.

I agree that attacking, or screaming at, workers doing their job is disgusting and serves no purpose.

Traderjoe
Traderjoe

Kloth does not live in the area and I would venture to say neither we're her masked accomplishes. She is a serial Rabble Rouser. It was probably fer and her cronies that did this in her back yard at the Wausau DNR office...

Also, on Monday, a group of protesters briefly occupied the Department of Natural Resources service center in Wausau, yelled profanities and nailed a banner to the roof stating opposition to the mine.

They tried to make their way into non-public areas of the building but were stopped. No arrests were made, according to the DNR. But one day later in a memo to the entire agency, Deputy DNR Secretary Matt Moroney said the department is working with law enforcement agencies to develop an "action plan for managing mining protest incidents."

michaelmcda
michaelmcda

",..Deputy DNR Secretary Matt Moroney said the department is working with law enforcement agencies to develop an "action plan for managing mining protest incidents."

Such an appropriate response from the DNR, so appropriate in fact that GTAC would do well to follow the lead of the DNR in the very State where it wishes to conduct business and work with law enforcement agencies to solve any irrational and illegal anti-mining actions instead of opting for the shock and awe of the ridiculously named forces from "Bullet Proof." Local and state law enforcement agencies theoretically serve in the interest of the citizenry of our state, private military-style forces serve the interest of whoever pays them the most.

Traderjoe
Traderjoe

From the Gtac spokesman:

As I’m sure Senator Jauch is aware, this is not a heavily populated area. There are not large police forces that can be tapped,” Seitz said. “We have used off duty sheriff’s deputies also, and we reimburse the county for overtime costs, and we’ve gone that route, but, you know, Iron County doesn’t have very many deputies, so there’s a limit to how much overtime you can use.”

Been there, done that!

aspire
aspire

Seems like the mining co. Is taking all responsible courses of action. If only the media could find it in them to be honest. Why is it so hard to be objective?

array1
array1

Pretty clear at this point the mine has little to do with jobs for Wisconsin. Absolutely no reason GT could not hire one of the 100 odd security firms available.

michaelmcda
michaelmcda

Yes. Duly sworn law enforcement officers have been there and doing that. The arrest of Kim Kloth and her eventual prosecution in court of law in the State of WI serves as proof that the rule of law and its enforcement in the State of WI serves the people well.

The GTAC spokesman Seitz's statement above displays a complete lack of faith in and respect of the law enforcement officers of Iron County. His assertion that the State of WI is incapable of providing an appropriate amount of law enforcement to protect its citizens and out of state employees stretches well beyond the bounds of credibility. I offer as proof the fact that since 2010 our State has witnessed numerous instances of civil unrest and public displays of extreme disagreement over the behaviors of our elected State officials and within nearly every if not all of episodes our law enforcement officers at the local, county and state levels have consistently applied the appropriate amount of presence and force to keep the peace.

Why Traderjoe are you so gung ho to turn over the policing of our State to an outside militaristic private entity?

michaelmcda
michaelmcda

TraderJoe, I wanted to offer this posting my Witness 2012 on another thread concerning these matters as it provides a timeline to these events that I think should clear up our disagreement or at least I hope so. I include the Witness 2012's timeline/post specifically for its appeal to reason, an appeal we all must keep in mind as we move forward in these obviously very contentious matters:

"The incident happened on the very first day of exploratory drilling- June 11th. The Iron County sheriff's department had someone in custody within 24 hours. The charges were issued on June 21st, and Ms. Kloth's court hearing in July 15th.

That means that from June 12th till July 4th-(when BPS showed up)- security was provided by local private security companies. That is 36 days in which the exploratory drilling went on without disruption, local people continued to hike in the area, collect mushrooms and herbs, and communication went on well while both Ashland and Iron counties and some of the townships are working out their zoning ordinances.

No additional incidents AFTER June 11th- adequate security was provided by local private security.

So, why after 36 days with no incident bring in paramilitary soldiers????

Please. Think. The local leaders don't want BPS, the local citizens don't want BPS, the local law enforcement don't want BPS.

Who wants them???."

Read more: http://host.madison.com/news/local/writers/steven_elbow/a-wild-week-at-the-gogebic-taconite-mine-site/article_cb9b5d60-d31b-5eee-bf2f-ae81f005a617.html#ixzz2YraYkhb2

Traderjoe
Traderjoe

Again Michaelmcda, you, like the rest of the Leftyd forget that Madison does not represent the rest of the State. It is 77 sq. miles of idiocy surrounded by 64,000 sq.?miles of sanity! Iron County Sherriffs Dept. has about 8 patrol Officers compared to Madison's hundreds . Don't be foolish!

Jauch is a Huge Joke and I do mean Huge It's just political grandstanding. He looked like he could hardly breath and will have a heart attack soon. Meanwhile our reps have no business being involved in what a private company does to protect their workers.

@ michaelmcda - It's not giving up the policing of our state. It is prtocting workers on private property. Hundreds of companies use security guards every day all over the state and they work together with our law enfiorcement all the time

michaelmcda
michaelmcda

@Traderjoe(below):

Yes. And, as the timeline provided by Witness 2012 displays, those 8 or so officers and an appropriate local private security force provided and would continue to provide reasonably adequate security. In fact, Kim Kloth's arrest and eventual prosecution attest to just such a fact. Again, no matter where in the State a threat to the security and safety of life and property may exist, local and State law enforcement in conjunction with local private security firms have consistently demonstrated they are more than able to meet the needs of our fellow citizens.

So, again, Traderjoe, why do you continue to unreasonably call for the unproven need for out of state paramilitary forces to patrol the woods of Iron County when it is quite obvious that such forces are unwarranted and unwanted by both the local security needs and the citizenry, government and law enforcement of the area?

Thje DNR officers in Wausau Had guns and stopped the protestors. At the site the workers were defensless until the security team showed up. Big difference and they Were needed

ThreadKiller
ThreadKiller

Nothing on this mining project has gone on without the explicit oversight by Walker and Fitzgerald. They probably suggested these goons as "security", even though they don't have the proper licensing to comply with state law. Nobody cared until someone did a little fishing and found out. There will be no fine, no jail time, no waiting a year to do business in WI....the GOP solution to everything is to cheat and make up the rules as they go along.

lute
lute

Of course Walker and Fitzgerald knew. They set this in motion. Can you imagine if WEAC, for example, had similar trouble with some protestors and in response hired a team of masked mercenaries with camo and night vision and military weapons to patrol the area around their office??

Norwood44
Norwood44

Actually, WEAC patrolled the Capitol for a year. I think the Solidarity Singers are still patrolling.

Ex_Madisonian
Ex_Madisonian

Gasp! :) Singing hippies do not equal criminal out of state heavily armed "security forces".

@ ex-madisonian - At least the security guards are doing a job and serve a purpose. Teh singers are just an annoying ear and eye-sore.

Norwood44
Norwood44

Physically? No. Aesthetically? Yes.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

FICTION: More nonsense from the resident union hater. Show your evidence that WEAC is "patrolling the capital". What a bunch of horse manure.

ridiculous comparison. They are in the woods which is why they wear camo and they wear masks to keep away mosquitoes and to prtect their identity from the nuts who might come after them or post pics online.

Hogzilla
Hogzilla

The lady in the video is Katie Kloth from Stevens Point.

Here is a video of her meeting with the mayor Point.

I think it's pretty clear the she doesn't like diplomacy, but I will hold back on making any further assessments.

Decide for yourself if she is a reasonable person. You can't hide that voice....

http://vimeo.com/11246171

onwisconsin1
onwisconsin1

She is doing more about something she believes in than you. Wouldn't you be a little upset if illegally armed guards were placed in your backyard to intimidate you? It's publicly accessible land, and Federal Treaty Rights are being trampled on. Clean water is at risk, which is protected under our Constitution and Declaration of Independence....all so some shady company in Florida can come in, destroy everything, and hire out of state workers. Seems pretty reasonable to be upset, buddy....now go turn on your TV, believe everything you see---remain calm and carry on, nothing to see here....wait a second, what if our founding fathers had had that attitude towards the British and the corporations that enslaved the colonies?

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

onwisconsin1 - I don't approve of the actions of Gogebic either, nor there disregard for the rights of Wisconsin citizens, including Native Americans.

However, the behavior in the video shown by the protestors is inexcuseable, and frankly, I'm surprised no one has been charged with disorderly conduct, as far as I've seen so far in the news.

For appropriate role models in protest Martin Luther King, Jr. is by far the best example. He never swayed from his convictions, but he treated his enemies with the same respect with which he wish to be treated.

The protestors in the video have done more harm than good.

onwisconsin1
onwisconsin1

Martin Luther King wasn't the 'leader' of the Civil Rights Movement. Terrible example....he was a part of the movement. So was Malcolm, X, The Black Panthers (who do you think sent armed guards to voting locations when the clan sent armed terrorists to intimidate, like these mercenaries?) How about grassroots build up discontent to the 60's that lived in sharecropper's fields? How about people like John Brown?

Passive resistance is an effective tool, hands down. But when the laws are unjust, the culture unjust, and the leadership is Fascism, it takes direct action. Our forefathers did this.

"Men must be aggressive for what is right if government is to be saved from men who are aggressive for what is wrong." -'Fighting' Bob La Follette

"Democracy isn't made, it is in the making." -'Fighting' Bob La Follette

Norwood44
Norwood44

Well said FF. On this we agree. Claiming those protesters were practicing civil disobedience is making Ghandi and Dr. King roll over in their graves.

MultiVortex
MultiVortex

Well said. I sympathize with onwisconsin's frustrations, but I'm glad many environmentalists commenting on this story see the more effective way of protest. Couldn't think of a better role model than MLK. Cheers.

witness2012
witness2012

Ms. Kloth has been charged with a felony and three misdemeanors. Others may also be in the future.

No one is taking this lightly. And, very few people are defending it.

WE agree for a change! MFL lands do allow access for hiking, hunting, fishing,but not for vandalism, protesting, and assaults.

Hogzilla
Hogzilla

You know nothing about me. I have played roles in many direct action endeavors over the years and I have seen this exact same scenario come to fruition on multiple occasions. I have been involved with scores of efforts and have helped preserve tracts of land and fight for intelligent stewardship of our resources for going on three decades.

Why do you think I know who this person is? I didn't just fall off the turnip truck.

That said, I have learned that the way to fight these issues is in court and in the court of public opinion. The pathway to preservation does not go through Eco Terror Town. This could easily escalate and that is why GTac is nipping it in the bud before it does. They will get the proper permits and the soldiers will be back. To antagonize them is a poor strategy at this point. The decision on this mine will come down to what the science says about the sulfide load in the soil, and by all preliminary reports, this will never be a mine site.

This is a distraction and Ms. Kloths efforts are playing directly into the hands of the people who support mining in Wisconsin. We are going to have mines here eventually and there are many more that are currently working through the proposal process. They will have a much easier time doing so if all the focus is on the GTac mine.

In fact, in this case, she actually making it more likely that more mine projects get approved elsewhere in the state.

You are naive, but I am not. This is how the game is played. Figure it out.

onwisconsin1
onwisconsin1

I watched the video. I live in Point. I drive by that lot every day. What they are fighting for is the best thing in that neighborhood, and they are right. The mayor just declared bankruptcy! Who is he to lecture these well-organized community members about finances and development? He ribbed them about 'owning property'., yet he just declared BANKRUPTCY.....what a turkey! They fixed an ugly vacant property. Point is still actually affordable for lower and middle class people, that is why I moved here.

You completely dodged the question I asked you: Wouldn't you be a little upset if illegally armed guards were placed in your backyard to intimidate you over something that is illegal, unjust and didn't ask for your input?

I'm not going to shoot back names...instead, if being "naive" is the opposite of being "jaded"-----I take that as a huge compliment. Thank you!

Norwood44
Norwood44

Bravo Hogzilla. Well stated. I too have concerns about the mine. But the testing and science should determine what is happening. We will go through many election cycles before anything is finalized. The balance of power in Madison could well shift. We can trust the DNR to be forthright, even if Walker tries to apply pressure. In some ways, Walker is far more politically vulnerable on the mine issue than ACT 10.

Hogzilla
Hogzilla

So you think that when the city offers to move your gardens on their nickel and offers as many as 7 other locals where they can set up shop in perfectly walkable intervals around town, that you should keep fighting and squatting on land you have no right to be on? I'm sorry, that is just beyond obtuse.

I lived in Point for 5 years and went to school there for Natty Resources. Please don't lecture me.

The mayor's personal finance issues have nothing to do with his ability to govern, but even if it did, the city council could have saved the day, but they actually sided with the mayor because they really liked the concept and wanted to make the land available.

But no, Kloth just had to have HER way on everything and she ended up botching a really good idea. That is what they call the Cult of Personality or the inability to see the Forest for the Trees.

Zxcvbnm
Zxcvbnm

Well, I'm not naive; I worked on those community garden projects (multiple attempted projects) with Kloth and other really dedicated Point people three years ago. You have the facts wrong about our interactions with the city, and about why the group decided to squat the Lullaby plot. You also lazily mischaracterize Kloth when you say "I think it's pretty clear the she doesn't like diplomacy."
This is a woman who volunteered her time going door-to-door to interview the whole surrounding neighborhood about what each resident would prefer happen with that vacant downtown lot. The group found a majority were open to or preferred the idea of community gardens over condos on the Lullaby land. Over the course of months she followed every known citizen's procedure to get her group's proposal as just an item on the city council meeting, to no avail. She spoke persuasively about the garden proposal in the open comments section at many city council meetings anyway. The garden group made a serious offer to buy the land for the price it was listed at -- $1! All this over the backdrop of Mayor Halverson's shady dealings around this long-vacant property. The group's consensus to squat and build the gardens was based on the neighborhood's opinions, not a "cult of personality". Her delivery in the "meeting with the mayor" video is that of an honest, fiercely creative community doer talking to a baldfaced corrupt politician, who doesn't make an real place at the table for anyone that doesn't fit into his master plan of gentrification for our downtown. Further, after he told the garden-building squatters there would be no arrests, the cops were sent in before dawn and hauled off and cuffed gardeners; their freshly built raised beds full of seeds were bulldozed. Charges were dropped. We continued to work with the city. At a subsequent meeting with Halverson we were told to ask a neighborhood association about implementing gardens in a park where a school was demolished. So another garden plan that integrated community gardens into the existing park layout was then crafted, and presented at the neighborhood association meeting. Our plan was shot down by this association which was rather aghast at the idea of food growing in their green space. We met again with city employees and we were offered a parcel of unused weedy land by the university, to be leased by us for free (just for signing a lease form with the city). We worked on this land as a permaculture project and brought in permaculture advsiors and other orgs from the community to help. (Later it was revealed that these lease signatures were, unbeknownst to Kloth and other signers, a "plea deal" for the arrests on the Lullaby plot... Bizarre, shady, corrupt, typical Halverson administration workings.)
Kloth is emotional and honest -- when most are afraid to be genuine and real. She is also the hardest worker for justice I have ever met. And we have our differences. I don't worship her; I just know her. Her determination and courage are misunderstood by many. Her deep convictions are correct, and will prove so in time, just like other anti-oppression visionaries from the past. Also, just being "at work" doesn't mean you're doing the right thing. That's a ridiculous assertion. Remember, our politicians are all "on the job" too! Clean water is OUR human survival, preservation of this remaining wild rice is a human rights issue; and these folks "just at work" are personally complicit in crimes of genocide against the Ojibwe people -- just ask the tribe themselves.

Zxcvbnm
Zxcvbnm


Well, I'm not naive; I worked on those community garden projects (multiple attempted projects) with Kloth and other really dedicated Point people three years ago. You have the facts wrong about our interactions with the city, and about why the group decided to squat the Lullaby plot. You also lazily mischaracterize Kloth when you say "I think it's pretty clear the she doesn't like diplomacy."
This is a woman who volunteered her time going door-to-door to interview the whole surrounding neighborhood about what each resident would prefer happen with that vacant downtown lot. The group found a majority were open to or preferred the idea of community gardens over condos on the Lullaby land. Over the course of months she followed every known citizen's procedure to get her group's proposal as just an item on the city council meeting, to no avail. She spoke persuasively about the garden proposal in the open comments section at many city council meetings anyway. The garden group made a serious offer to buy the land for the price it was listed at -- $1! All this over the backdrop of Mayor Halverson's shady dealings around this long-vacant property. The group's consensus to squat and build the gardens was based on the neighborhood's opinions, not a "cult of personality". Her delivery in the "meeting with the mayor" video is that of an honest, fiercely creative community doer talking to a baldfaced corrupt politician, who doesn't make an real place at the table for anyone that doesn't fit into his master plan of gentrification for our downtown. Further, after he told the garden-building squatters there would be no arrests, the cops were sent in before dawn and hauled off and cuffed gardeners; their freshly built raised beds full of seeds were bulldozed. Charges were dropped. We continued to work with the city. At a subsequent meeting with Halverson we were told to ask a neighborhood association about implementing gardens in a park where a school was demolished. So another garden plan that integrated community gardens into the existing park layout was then crafted, and presented at the neighborhood association meeting. Our plan was shot down by this association which was rather aghast at the idea of food growing in their green space. We met again with city employees and we were offered a parcel of unused weedy land by the university, to be leased by us for free (just for signing a lease form with the city). We worked on this land as a permaculture project and brought in permaculture advsiors and other orgs from the community to help. (Later it was revealed that these lease signatures were, unbeknownst to Kloth and other signers, a "plea deal" for the arrests on the Lullaby plot... Bizarre, shady, corrupt, typical Halverson administration workings.)
Kloth is emotional and honest -- when most are afraid to be genuine and real. She is also the hardest worker for justice I have ever met. And we have our differences. I don't worship her; I just know her. Her determination and courage are misunderstood by many. Her deep convictions are correct, and will prove so in time, just like other anti-oppression visionaries from the past. Also, just being "at work" doesn't mean you're doing the right thing. That's a ridiculous assertion. Remember, our politicians are all "on the job" too! Clean water is OUR human survival, preservation of this remaining wild rice is a human rights issue; and these folks "just at work" are personally complicit in crimes of genocide against the Ojibwe people -- just ask the tribe themselves.

Zxcvbnm
Zxcvbnm

Well, I'm not naive; I worked on those community garden projects (multiple attempted projects) with Kloth and other really dedicated Point people three years ago. You have the facts wrong about our interactions with the city, and about why the group decided to squat the Lullaby plot. You also lazily mischaracterize Kloth when you say "I think it's pretty clear the she doesn't like diplomacy."
This is a woman who volunteered her time going door-to-door to interview the whole surrounding neighborhood about what each resident would prefer happen with that vacant downtown lot. The group found a majority were open to or preferred the idea of community gardens over condos on the Lullaby land. Over the course of months she followed every known citizen's procedure to get her group's proposal as just an item on the city council meeting, to no avail. She spoke persuasively about the garden proposal in the open comments section at many city council meetings anyway. The garden group made a serious offer to buy the land for the price it was listed at -- $1! All this over the backdrop of Mayor Halverson's shady dealings around this long-vacant property. The group's consensus to squat and build the gardens was based on the neighborhood's opinions, not a "cult of personality". Her delivery in the "meeting with the mayor" video is that of an honest, fiercely creative community doer talking to a baldfaced corrupt politician, who doesn't make an real place at the table for anyone that doesn't fit into his master plan of gentrification for our downtown.

Zxcvbnm
Zxcvbnm

Further, after he told the garden-building squatters there would be no arrests, the cops were sent in before dawn and hauled off and cuffed gardeners; their freshly built raised beds full of seeds were bulldozed. Charges were dropped. We continued to work with the city. At a subsequent meeting with Halverson we were told to ask a neighborhood association about implementing gardens in a park where a school was demolished. So another garden plan that integrated community gardens into the existing park layout was then crafted, and presented at the neighborhood association meeting. Our plan was shot down by this association which was rather aghast at the idea of food growing in their green space. We met again with city employees and we were offered a parcel of unused weedy land by the university, to be leased by us for free (just for signing a lease form with the city). We worked on this land as a permaculture project and brought in permaculture advsiors and other orgs from the community to help. (Later it was revealed that these lease signatures were, unbeknownst to Kloth and other signers, a "plea deal" for the arrests on the Lullaby plot... Bizarre, shady, corrupt, typical Halverson administration workings.)

Zxcvbnm
Zxcvbnm

Kloth is emotional and honest -- when most are afraid to be genuine and real. She is also the hardest worker for justice I have ever met. And we have our differences. I don't worship her; I just know her. Her determination and courage are misunderstood by many. Her deep convictions are correct, and will prove so in time, just like other anti-oppression visionaries from the past. Also, just being "at work" doesn't mean you're doing the right thing. That's a ridiculous assertion. Remember, our politicians are all "on the job" too! Clean water is OUR human survival, preservation of this remaining wild rice is a human rights issue; and these folks "just at work" are personally complicit in crimes of genocide against the Ojibwe people -- just ask the tribe themselves.

Norwood44
Norwood44

Kloth does not help the environmental cause. Passion is useless unless directed correctly. She is angry, and self-righteous and close minded. She assumes everyone is wrong, and she is right. She is also violent. Not good for the cause.

Norwood44
Norwood44

zxc. I watched the video between the squatters and the SP mayor. First, it was edited, so its credibility is questionable. Secondly, I was struck by how little respect the squatters showed towards democratically elected officials and the process by which they are bound, and empowered. What you should do is run for elected office. Make your case, which is compelling and interesting, and then change local laws and codes the way real democratic grownups do. What you exhibited in your meeting with the mayor was petulant, entitled, lazy and self-righteous. People will listen to you if you make a good case and show respect. I don't think you did. And Ms. Kloth proved this out in the Penokee video. You can't be crazy, foul mouthed,violent, disrespectul and lawless and expect people to view your position as legit. Absolutists scare everyone. Ms. Kloth is an absolutist. Personally, I think she needs counseling and medication. She has only succeeded in making political enemies unneccesarily.

Norwood44
Norwood44

Yes, she is doing something all right. She is screaming F bombs and stealing cameras. And the guards weren't there. There were hired in the wake of her disruption. So if you want to blame someone for the escalation, blame Little Miss F Bomb Camera Stealer.

Hogzilla
Hogzilla

She was clearly using the episode as a catharsis for all the pent up rage she had been letting seeth just below the surface. I've seen it on numerous occasions where people just get nuts when their adrenaline kicks in. It's kinda scary....

witxpr
witxpr

inwi, how can you talk about clean water when the bad river tribe has been polluting for years? where is your outrage there?? only going to get on your pedistal when you feel ike it? very patronizing to go afte

No way you can defend people who attack workers doing a job. Maybe they should go get one instead of livinig off the rest of us.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

I think Hogzilla is correct on this, and that Katie is already in plenty of of trouble with the Ashland County District Attorney regarding her actions depicted in the video.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/ashland-county-to-require-permit-100000-fee-from-mine-company-b9939184z1-212503921.html

onwisconsin1
onwisconsin1

Dude, it's Ashland County.....Google "2012 Wisconsin election results by county"......yeah, they're really gonna throw the book something hard at her...just like that segway guy got hit real hard and is prison now....wait, he isn't?

witness2012
witness2012

Actually, Ms. Kloth will be appearing in Iron County court and is being charged by the Iron County DA.

Norwood44
Norwood44

JSonline is a credible source. Thanks Hogzilla for the background that has clarified the issue.

onwisconsin1
onwisconsin1

So this is what the Republican Red Wave of 2010 has reduced our State to. They didn't even give us the proper time to universally celebrate a Packer Superbowl win and reap the social rewards of a professional sports team championship. Baltimore is still buzzing after their win 5 months ago, and it is having a positive impact on their economy; we were robbed of that. When New Orleans won black and white, rich and poor celebrated together and it was the spark of recovery; we we're robbed of that spark, even when our job market needs it the most.

Right after our Superbowl prize, Act 10 happened and our state was divided by the Koch Brothers and other corporate "non-profit" tea party fronts. Want proof? Right now in Georgia the Koch Brothers are trying to stop The Tea Party in Atlanta from supporting Solar and 'off the grid' energy technology---google it once and find the article. The Tea Party there sees it as a free-market issue, the Koch Brothers want to maintain a monopoly on Energy. Even the Tea Party isn't safe from them.

So we went from Superbowl champs to having arrest warrants issued for lawmakers, massive protests on both sides, neighbors literally threatening each other with death,
recall elections, the trampling of Indigenous Treaty Rights, and stagnant job creation no where near 250,000 jobs....and now this. At this rate, there will be blood up north.

One questions should be asked: who was in charge of the State Government during this unethical divisive period when we were robbed of our Superbowl win?

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

Excellent summary, and 100% instigated by our Fascist Republican governor Walker and his buddies.

onwisconsin1
onwisconsin1

FACT!

Comment deleted.
Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ Norwood44 - I'm really getting sick of the stalking.

I'm not a journalist and don't have to cooperate your demands that I describe Governor Walker and his politics as democratic in nature when they are not.

Norwood44
Norwood44

FF. Stalking? You regularly issue a biased determination of whether or not something is Fact or Fiction. It is an unfair and unjust deceit that you perpetrate on the board. You use it to falsely characterize my opinions, and those of others, with authority and information you do not have, and bias evident to all. It stifles healthy discussion, and has become intellectually laughable, as are your debate tips and complaints. It’s also polarizing, condescending and inflammatory. If you can appoint yourself judge of what is Fact or Fiction, then surely someone else can take it upon their shoulders to notify others of your bias. It will be good for the board, and of service to all living things. Now…this is your cue. stand by….isn’t this fun….aaaand shout “Fascist”. Well done. That was one of your best yet.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ Norwood44: HYPOCRITE
When you stop lying and stop ridiculing others, while claiming false outrage when your own falsehoods are exposed, I'll be happy to oblige with your cry of "uncle".

Blog-Rating-Meter
Blog-Rating-Meter

@Fact or Fiction

Meter Scale
0 = Non-Existent
10 = Maximum Level
BS = Beyond Scale

Truth-O-Meter = 1
Fact-O-Meter = 0
Fraud-O -Meter = 5
Deceive-O-Meter = BS
Informed-O-Meter = BS
Intellect-O-Meter = 5
Assume-O-Meter = BS
Insult-Meter = BS
Detail-O-Meter = 0
Sarcasm-O-Meter = 0
Humor-O-Meter = 0
OnTopic-O-Meter = 0
OverAll-O-Meter = BS

The Blog Rater has spoken.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

Nice to see that Norwood44 has no problem with rating the validity of a post, as long as the rater is in lockstep agreement with Norwood44.

HYPOCRITE

Norwood44
Norwood44

Onwisconsin. I like that the Packers went for a good running back this year in the early draft. They need a ground threat to keep Rogers safe. What is your take?

onwisconsin1
onwisconsin1

Completely agreed Norwood! Going into the draft, I was thinking hogs and secondary....but picking up an Alabama running back from the dirty south of Louisiana is interesting......hopefully we're chanting "Roll Pack Roll" by the end of the year!

TruthDefender
TruthDefender

There seems to be plenty of bad behavior to go around on all sides of this. The protesters here were way out of line, committed crimes and established a threatening climate. The mine company workers showed a lot of restraint. Other threats of violent protests fostered a feeling that the mining company workers and equipment needed to be protected.

Then, the mining company brings in "security' in the form of a force that resembles mercenaries, sporting assault rifles. Overkill - absolutely. On the other hand, after looking at the video and seeing some of the other threats posed online, I'm not surprised. If they felt the need for security, they should have started with something more visible and clear -- some sort of uniformed, armed security guards who were visible and licensed in Wisconsin. It would have made the statement. However, I'm not sure they actually would have been as well trained as the group brought in, or as restrained.

There is a bad stink about everything to do with this project - the company and its history and current behavior, our state legislature and the way the mining bill was crafted and passed, and this episode - not just the mining company but the protesters. There is probably nothing that can be done about the legislation at for now, but at the site, both sides need to back off, take a deep breath and think about the intended and unintended consequences of the way they're acting.

Also, the sheriff's departments that area also need to step up. It's not their job to provide private security, but it is their job to maintain order and protect the rights of all involved. Nothing good will come from escalating this on either side. The actions of both are going to bring a lot of unintended consequences - none of them good.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ Truthdefender - reasonable and truthful analysis. I think in this case the local sheriff's department will not be up to the task. In this case the Governor may need to deploy the National Guard to keep the peace between the paramilitary Gogebic guards and the foul-mouthed, apparently Native-American protesters.

Comment deleted.
Norwood44
Norwood44

Why? If you can sujectively determine what is fact or fiction, then I can surely determine who should be recused. Free speech FF. Not only you can use it. You are recused. Oh, and when you use the word facist, anyone who lives in this state should take umbrage. You insult legally held elections and everyone who voted. Both sides. It is an incredibly offensive term, and you use it in nearly every post. And you are wrong. When Walker suspends elections, then I'll believe you. But that hasn't happened yet. And won't. You are recused.

Comment deleted.
Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ Norwood44 - You may not like it, but Scott Walker is a fascist Republican. Sorry, but that's freedom of speech. You're comment that I call posters here "fascists" is a complete and outright lie.

Norwood44
Norwood44

The Native American assertion is not based on fact, if judging by the video. The intruders were masked. One was arrested and it is a matter of public record that she is from Stevens Point and did not self-identify as Native American. So, while there could have been Native Americans involved in the protest, there is no proof that there were, or even what tribe.

BananaSplitz
BananaSplitz

Thanks for making that point, Norwood.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

I said apparently - it was no assertion, and we still don't have the identities of all the perpetraitors. The protestors DID make mention of tribal lands, and the tribes are not happy with this. We dont simply don't know if any tribal members were involved.

Reply
Reply

Between a handful of loose-cannon protesters and Bulletproof's garrison of upgraded mall cops, this fiasco is looking more like a casting audition of "Hillbillies for Hire."

But as each side provokes and antagonizes the other in this contest of who can go farthest over-the-top, the stakes become dangerously high. At this rate someone's apt to get shot. Then all the finger-pointing & figuring out where to lay blame will not erase the unfortunate fact that someone's life changed drastically ... or ended ... over what should have been a simple disorderly conduct or trespassing charge.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ Reply - correct. The Governor needs to take peaceful action to settle things down. Hopefully he is not out of state giving a speech, and can be bothered to do something about this mess he's helped to create.

Wis_BlogRider
Wis_BlogRider

As crazy as things are getting in Wisconsin how do we know Walker or the mining company didn't plant the protester there? Remember the phone call where Walker admitted he thought about planting trouble makers on the capital square in Madison ?

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

I thought the same thing, but it looks like the protesters are local Native Americans, unless something to the contrary comes up.

Hogzilla
Hogzilla

Come on man, keep up with the info available. It's Katie Kloth and a group of her people. They don't live there, they went up to start a ruckus and start a ruckus they did.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

So not a single protestor is a Native American? Do you know that for a fact?

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

Hogzilla - Is this the same incident shown in the video, and was the video filmed on June 11th? If so then I see what you mean.


This is from the Milwaukee Journal Sentinal web site dated June 21st
"On Friday, the Iron County district attorney charged Katie M. Kloth, 26, of Stevens Point in connection with an incident on June 11 where protesters slashed tires, damaged equipment, threw up barricades to impede police and threatened workers at the mine site. Kloth is also charged with stealing a worker's cellphone and camera.

Kloth was charged with robbery with use of force, misdemeanor theft and two counts of criminal damage to property, according to the complaint. District Attorney Marty Lipske said the investigation is continuing and more people may be charged.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/ashland-county-to-require-permit-100000-fee-from-mine-company-b9939184z1-212503921.html

Hogzilla
Hogzilla

What difference does that make? I am part Native American and that part of my heritage doesn't really mean anything when it comes to whether or not I am concerned about the mine. Unless I happened to live near the site of the mine, I really wouldn't be any more or less concerned about the effects of the mine because I happen to have an extensive gene pool.

If water quality had been an ongoing concern for the members of the Bad River tribe, they could have improved their own sanitary and water management systems. I get that a mine is not the same thing as a water treatment facility, but it kinda makes it a tougher pill to swallow when you consider that the tribes are among the most prolific violators of EPA standards for water quality and waste management, and that IS a fact.

The bottom line is that the mine is a big deal and I wouldn't want it if it really meant that we were going to ruin the local environment. We have to have a little faith in science and faith in the system. Wisconsin only has a smidge of authority in these regards. The Feddies have a much bigger dogs and a hell of a lot more clout with their sets of laws.

hankdog
hankdog

hog:

"Wisconsin only has a smidge of authority...". True to a point after the mining law passed, but they still have lots of authority regarding any and all permits required for the mine.

Yes, the feds, COE, EPA, etc have a big stick in the game. They may well stop the mine and there is nothing walker et al can do about it.

Even Sen. Tom Tiffany, who pushed the mining law through the senate admitted that the mine will cause environmental damage, but the law was needed to reduce or eliminate the potential for lawsuits.

I have faith in the science, but certainly not the system in WI, nor the politicians involved. If developed, this mine will be an environmental disaster.

Now try to convince me otherwise.

Hogzilla
Hogzilla

FF~ Yep, that is the incident in the video.

Hogzilla
Hogzilla

hankdog~ I can't tell you in good faith that I think this particular mine is a good idea. I am only basing that opinion on the few studies that were done before the new law came into effect.

The sulfide loads is likely 20-40 times higher than most of the "safe" mines in Minnesota. The thing is, when the sulfides mix with Oxygen, they create Sulfuric Acid. In the case of the proposed GTac mine, we could be looking at billions of gallons. There is no conceivable way that the EPA would allow that.

Norwood44
Norwood44

This assertion is unsupportable.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

You're the expert, Norwood44, and whatever you say is "the truth" and must be obeyed. Thank you.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

For an alternative, balanced take on this story, along with enlightening comments see this link:

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2013/07/video-clash-protesters-workers-wisconsin-mine.php

Comments there by poster WiscoJoe are especially thought-provoking

I'm not sure about that, but it is increasingly clear that the right-wing prefers Second Amendment remedies to First Amendment remedies.

Protesters and civil disobediance bad! Militias and guns good!

I'm kind of stunned by people that think these protesters represent a bigger problem or are less legitimate than private paramilitary groups.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

More excellent comments by WiscoJoe:

Normally I would say that these conflicts between various people with stakes in this public land would be settled through state regulation, public hearings, and careful judicial review of the law, but unfortunately those important checks and balances have been disappearing in Wisconsin since 2010. It's easy to sympathize with the protesters who feel that the only way to protect their own investment into the Northwoods is through civil disobedience. And it's easy to understand why Gogebic Taconite and Bulletproof Security have been given the impression by our "open for business" state government that they have absolutely no responsibility for public accountability or consideration for the industries and people that have been invested in the Northwoods for a lot longer than they have.

Comment deleted.
Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

More ad hominem attacks.

Do you have any reasonable points to make, Norwood44? Or just more ridiculous comments such as speculating that some of the parties involved might be union members?

ad ho·mi·nem
/ˈad ˈhämənəm/Adverb
1.(of an argument or reaction) Arising from or appealing to the emotions and not reason or logic.
2.Attacking an opponent's motives or character rather than the policy or position they maintain.

Comment deleted.
Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ Norwood44 - FICTION
Being on the losing side of an argument does not mean you've been bullied. In fact, bullying and insulting, along with lies, is your primary pre-occupation here. Tonight you've crossed the line by lying about me yet again, calling me a "union troll" and a paid WEAC poster. This is unacceptable.

I treat people here, including those I disgree with, respectfully, and I expect the same of you. When that does not happen, and when you engage in disruptive rhetoric in an attempt to discredit me with lies, you will be reported.

DriveThru
DriveThru

Wow, I guess people care if their water is toxic. Who'd have guessed. I've seen shouting matches like this many times. If the guards show up with assault rifles, its only a matter of time until protesters get rifles to protect themselves. Odd how the state gets to decide if it will enforce the law. Is that how it works, prosecutors decide who has to obey the laws and who is exempt?

MultiVortex
MultiVortex

After Wall Street in 2008, Bush's war on Iraq, torture, is there really any justice left in America? The only people who go to jail anymore are people with less financial resources. Our system is beyond broken.

spooky tooth
spooky tooth

This is Divide and Conquer! We are a state divided by hate, thank you republican party.

Norwood44
Norwood44

Spooky. Watch the video. Who yelled the hateful language? How do you know the workers are Republicans? How do you know they aren't in a union? How do you know that the woman who had her camera stolen doesn't have a husband who is a teacher? Your assumptions and world view create hate and divisiveness. Grab a mirror.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

Wakeup Norwood44 - the dream of the current Republican Fascist legislators accomplishing anything good or beneficial for the state of Wisconsin is nothing but distant members of campaign promises and lies by Scott Walker. The truth is coming out and whether you like it or not, it remains the truth.

Norwood44
Norwood44

FF. I would be more than happy to vote for someone other than Scott Walker, but not if they sound like you. You regularly post things that help everyone clearly understand why the Dems lost. You are every bit as polarizing as Walker. We need New Dems. Not Old Dems on the union payroll.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ Norwood44 (below) You can't help yourself, can you Norwood44? Please, do some reading on how to debate. It involves making assertions about policies, for example, not personal attacks on those who easily defeat you on your ridiculous, nonsensical, hateful, biggoted anti-union rhetoric over and over and over.

Here is how ad hominem attacks are NOT part of legitimate debate. Read and learn.

ad ho·mi·nem
/ˈad ˈhämənəm/Adverb
1.(of an argument or reaction) Arising from or appealing to the emotions and not reason or logic.
2.Attacking an opponent's motives or character rather than the policy or position they maintain.

Norwood44
Norwood44

FF. You are absolutely out of order advising anyone on debate ethics. Your posts are regularly insulting, emotional and irrational. You try to cow people at every turn with faux objectivity and biased links, and yet you whine of ad homimen attacks. It's remarkably hypocritical. As for debating the issues, I regularly disagree with you on the issues. You never respond. For instance, you bring up the Koch Brothers. I parry with the WEAC donations and need for campaign finance reform. Your response? Nothing. When cornered you just holler "ad hominem attack" the way a bully hollers "uncle". When bored I shadow your comments and refute them because your charade of being an objective authority when you exhibit blatant bias is incredibly dishonest and unfair to the discussion board. Refuting your posts strikes a blow for rational debate, free speech, open minds and democracy. And it lampoons self-righteousness, which is the most enjoyable aspect of it all. Now, cry "fascist". It's what you do.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ Norwood44 - FICTION.
Identifying Scott Walker as a Fascist Republican is legitimate matter of political debate. On the other hand, that's not what you have been acusing me of doing, but rather labeling posters here of being fascists, which I have not. I could care less whether you are a Republican or not. Any comments toward you or any other poster here including the word "Republican" are about the point of view offered, not in stating that anyone is a registered member of the Republican Party. You comments labeing be of being a "Dem" are no more legitimate than anyone referring to your statements as being "Republican".

GOOD DOG HAPPY MAN
GOOD DOG HAPPY MAN

@FoF,

An ad hominem example is warranted for those kids you might have indoctrin,.....er, educated.

You can take the class from a classroom teacher, but, you can't take the "Li" from the liberal.

Not daring to be as hubristically pedantic as yourself .......you see, that uses the FASCIST, Satan-loving Alinskyite tactic of personalizing the message.

And leave my good buddy Woody alone, dawgette. Why are you constantly hounding and harassing him? Why all the hatin' and up in his grille and all?

Good Dog, Happy Man.

Gierahn
Gierahn

Use the word "terrorist" and you can justify almost anything in this country.

pat99835
pat99835

"Parrella said guards have photographed illegal campsites on private land near the test drilling sites and found elevated spots where people have set up places to watch the sites."

or maybe Parrella has discovered some old deer stands, and some old hunting camps......on private land? Why the heck can't a cell phone and the sheriff's department take care of this. Why do they need these heavily armed thugs wandering around the woods?

dhs
dhs

"Why do they need these heavily armed thugs wandering around the woods?"

Did you not watch the video?

Andy Olsen
Andy Olsen

Bunch of kids ranting and raving. You think those kids even know how to fight? This is blown all out of proportion. If this happened in the city would they lock down the whole town under armed occupation?

Militarizing this thing with weapons of war and demonizing opponents is dangerous stuff. These are tense times and the mining company is increasing tensions with their falsehoods and belligerence. They need to take it back down and de-escalate.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ Andy Olsen - FACT

Norwood44
Norwood44

Andy. What if that was your Mom and they reached out and grabbed her camera?What if that was your brother on the crew working for hire...legally? They are not a bunch of kids. They were masked intruders trying to create a disturbance. I agree, everyone needs to back off. But a question. Was the crew there illegally?I suspect so, or they could easily have been stopped by a call to the police.

Norwood44
Norwood44

FF. It seems that it is not a Fact that it was simply some kids ranting and raving. One woman was arrested and charged. Even you know it's not a fact because you found the link re the arrest and posted it. Please issue a retraction or correction so that we can deal in facts. It will help everyone on the board. Thank you.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

Norwood44 - As I stated before, I'm sick of the stalking. The link that I found was after Hogzilla called it to my attention and I googled to find out about the person he mentioned. I didn't have that info 4 hours ago when I posted to Andy Olsen's comments.

You can cut your BS now.

Norwood44
Norwood44

Fiction. Then what you declared wasn't fact. You didn't do your homework and made an factually incorrect statement, further undermining your already weak credibility as someone who pretends to know facts. As for BS, it comes from you in the false and biased assertions that you peddle as facts. Like Fox News, you have been found guilty of truthiness. You are recused.

Comment deleted.
Norwood44
Norwood44

Harvey. How do you know they aren't decorated veterans who defeated the Taliban in Afghanistan? You know, the people who bombed the Towers and the Pentagon and attempted to blow up our seat of government. As for outcasts, a lot of security specialists make more than they did in the armed services in a job that usually safer than being blown up by an IED in your Humvee while you are heading to a tribal meeting about building a dam. But hey, you know everything. Right?

dhs
dhs

Just watched the video and all I can say is... "Wow, what a bunch of nut-jobs!" I think I would hire armed guards too if a group like that confronted my employees (on public land or not).

DriveThru
DriveThru

Nothing but a shouting match--see them all the time.

Norwood44
Norwood44

Drive. So if someone grabs your smart phone and runs, ain't nuthin? And wrestles you when you try to get it back. Nothin? Just curious.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

Or, you might consider these facts presented by poster WiscoJoe at talkingpointsmemo.com

"The mining company also accepted huge tax breaks in exchange for keeping this public land open and accessible. They are now trying to use this video as a reason to no longer have to hold up their end of the bargain.
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2013/07/video-clash-protesters-workers-wisconsin-mine.php

Norwood44
Norwood44

First, that young woman needs to up her meds. Assuming the crew was there legally, they should be commended for their restraint. Secondly, it is interesting that for all the brouhaha about the security forces wearing baclavas, it seems they weren't the first masked force in the woods. If that crew was there legally, it would be irresponsible NOT to provide them with security. The eco activists were clearly out of hand. Also, right near the end, did anyone hear a male eco activist refer to firing his gun? I might have misheard, but that's what it sounded like. And all this for a test, not a mine. This is going to be ugly. But one thing is for sure, those eco gangstas are capable of violence. Truly thuggish behavior. And that girl has the communications skills of an air raid siren.

michaelmcda
michaelmcda

I have witnessed similar brawls on State Street at 2:30 am. Should we arm the bouncers with AR15s too?

aspire
aspire

Michael, very telling.

michaelmcda
michaelmcda

Aspire,

To the people who continue to toss out the charge of hypocrisy regarding the poor performance of the Bad River Band's sewage treatment plant, it is my understanding the tribe is and has been working to address the issues over the past several years and improvements are being made and that water quality standards are safe. Now, that does not excuse the tribe for their bad management. Tribal leadership screws things up just as well as local and State leadership screw things up. Humans are fallible. Ecological damage needs to be addressed and corrected whenever and wherever it occurs. But, I fail to see how or why we should not excuse the folks of Bad River and yet excuse the Gogebic Mining folks when it is revealed that the mine will cause harm to a rather beautiful place on this earth. So, if you want to do something positive why not work constructively with the tribe to address whatever environmental concerns you may have with their management of their sewage plant instead of using such mismanagement as an excuse to allow further harm to the environment. I see little benefit in such a position to any of us.

michaelmcda
michaelmcda

And by the way, it is "baLaclava" unless those guys are wearing honey-filled phyllo dough pastries on their faces. Now, that would really be a scary sight. :)

Norwood44
Norwood44

Yes. Kinda like the yolk of capitalism.

DriveThru
DriveThru

Now shouting is "thuggish." You clowns are so desperate to smear people. They didn't so much as bump into anyone. Amazing restraint from the activists given that their water is being destroyed.

Norwood44
Norwood44

Drive. Did you watch the video? Did you see the struggle between the woman and the masked girl? How delusional are you? Those kids were thuggish. There are fair questions to be asked about the mine. But no excuse for that behavior. None. They were thugs. And they were trying to create a confrontation. The clown is you.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

Worse yet, Norwood44, maybe some of those protestors were in unions! Or maybe some of the Gogebic employees were in unions which would explain why they didn't just walk away, but argued with the protestors. Maybe all of them on both sides are union thugs! You just never know.

Norwood44
Norwood44

Fiction. I actually posted the comment that the test workers might be union members on a different thread. I also said it was possible that the woman who was attacked by the eco activist crazy girl could be married to a teacher, rather than being a tool of whatever Republican conspiracy is fashionable this hour. Of course, when speaking of this conspiracy, I am sure you will add the word "fascist". It's what you do.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

"eco ganstas" - That's scary, but not as scary as unionized eco ganstas, right Norwood44?

Norwood44
Norwood44

Fiction. I have no problem with unions. Just bad union contracts purchased with millions of dollars of campaign contributions. Millions of dollars average citizens don't have. As I have said before, I see the Koch brothers and WEAC as different sides of the same coin. We need campaign finance reform.

Presidents 3
Presidents 3

"Prepare for the worst" ????

We are doing just that. The acidic runoff from the mine poisoning the Bad River Watershed and then poisoning the pristine water of Lake Superior.

"Prepare for the worst" by lamenting the destruction of the wild rice beds that will be forever gone.

When the Ojibway cannot drink water from their own well or harvest rice from their poison destroyed wild rice beds will they be forced to leave their own reservation? Is that the worst ???

Will the racial animosity not seen since the 'walleye wars' be the worst we should prepare ourselves for ?

If the Secret Service do not cover their faces when protecting the president of the United States, surely men guarding bulldozers in the Penokee hills can safely show their faces.

The greatest risk the north woods faces is the mine itself.

That is the "worst" to prepare yourself for.

Norwood44
Norwood44

You're making a lot of assumptions there Presidents. Turn down the volume. I can't hear the people who aren't hysterical.

Presidents 3
Presidents 3

I avoid name calling, but I do have strong feelings about the situation in the north.

Norwood44
Norwood44

President. Just wondering. Do you have a problem with the protesters wearing masks? Does it bother you that they disguised their identity and did something violent and illegal by grabbing a camera from an older woman and wrestling with her while she tried to get her property back? Any ethical or moral issues there? Or is it OK for someone to wear masks and engage in violence only if you agree with their politics?

Presidents 3
Presidents 3

I prefer no one wears masks It is in the best interests of all to live a life that needs no secrecy. I hope to live my life in such a way that I can always hold my head up and look everyone in the eye.

Hiring security to protect workers is fine. The assault rifles are a over reaction. Identifying private land from public land is a factor that can be improved upon.

Things seem to be going from bad to worse. I find this downward spiral very disturbing.

I seldom ever post anything. But the combination of the Ojibway people and the salmon rivers and Lake Superior compel me to engage.

aspire
aspire

Uh, fact is the Ojibway have done more damage to their own water source. Do a little research.

michaelmcda
michaelmcda

Aspire,

To the people who continue to toss out the charge of hypocrisy regarding the poor performance of the Bad River Band's sewage treatment plant, it is my understanding the tribe is and has been working to address the issues over the past several years and improvements are being made and that water quality standards are safe. Now, that does not excuse the tribe for their bad management. Tribal leadership screws things up just as well as local and State leadership screw things up. Humans are fallible. Ecological damage needs to be addressed and corrected whenever and wherever it occurs. But, I fail to see how or why we should not excuse the folks of Bad River and yet excuse the Gogebic Mining folks when it is revealed that the mine will cause harm to a rather beautiful place on this earth. So, if you want to do something positive why not work constructively with the tribe to address whatever environmental concerns you may have with their management of their sewage plant instead of using such mismanagement as an excuse to allow further harm to the environment. I see little benefit in such a position to any of us.

Presidents 3
Presidents 3

I have contacted the tribe about waste water issues. There is room for improvement. They are improving their processes.

Much of the water issues they face are not due to the few people who live on the reservation. It comes from pollutants from upstream from the reservation.

The Bad River Watershed Association has done much to improve the water quality in the entire watershed.

Andy Olsen
Andy Olsen

You make a lot of good points. Thank you.

There is an assault that is being made on the land that will harm the water. That assault follows the assault on our democracy when they bought up politicians and rewrote our state's laws.

Looters.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ Presidents3's "If the Secret Service do not cover their faces when protecting the president of the United States, surely men guarding bulldozers in the Penokee hills can safely show their faces."

That's because the Secret Service agents are trying to blend in. If they wore masks it would certainly be obvious who was protecting the President and his family, wouldn't it?

aspire
aspire

Just watched the video of the eco terrorists that has gone viral. No one can argue that it's the mining companies responsibilty to protect our wisconsin workers from these nuts.

Mad-son
Mad-son

How do you know there are any Wisconsin workers there now? In the video they were called out as Minnesotans. Gogebic Taconite is based in Florida.

Norwood44
Norwood44

OK. Then how about protecting them because they are working stiffs and human beings? The workers were remarkably controlled in the face of the malevolent protestors.

DriveThru
DriveThru

Those "malevolent" shouters, why they might have damaged someones ear drums. We better call in the US Army. You clowns are so pathetic.

Mad-son
Mad-son

What did you expect the workers to do differently? Throw rocks at them? Shout back? I would be low key too if I were outnumbered, no one was physically threatning me with a beating, and nobody was armed.

Those workers still got paid for down time. I hope they see a lot more of it.

aspire
aspire

Mad son. Focus. Btw did I have any spelling errors?

DriveThru
DriveThru

Actually, republican "terrorists" like you are the real threat. You hide behind Koch money and Gerrymandering. WI really needs protection from "nuts" like you.

Norwood44
Norwood44

What about the millions WEAC spent for 20 years? Is that kind of bribery OK? Both parties have their sugar daddies. Let's not get all high and mighty.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

Yeah! Don't forget about the evil unions and how effectively they've been lobbying state legislators for the past 20 years. Everything has gone their way, right Norwood44? And let's not forget, Act 10 was actually good for public servants 'cause then then didn't have any layoffs or job losses ever again!

Wis_BlogRider
Wis_BlogRider

There are some good points in the comments being made about verifying where are these protestors from? Would be important information for Wisconsin citizens to know. Might be some surprises as to if they were planted there on purpose to create a scene by a special interest group.

Mad-son
Mad-son

It really does not matter where the observers/protesters are "from." It is public land. Supposed permit or not, the mercinaries and Gogebic Taconite are not "from" Wisconsin either, and that appears to be OK with you.

You are not going to benefit nealy as much, if at all, as them after they strip the land bare and leave a wasteland behind.

aspire
aspire

Madson nealy? Really nealy? Did you watch the video? Stay focused.

DriveThru
DriveThru

Yeh, what an amazing video of people hollering. Its just terrifying. You're so pathetic.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

Watch the video all you want aspire, that doesn't mean the foul-mouthed protesters are "eco terrorists" or even in violation of the law. Have any arrests been made? If not, why not?

Norwood44
Norwood44

Actually Fiction, onne of the protesters, as you know, was arrested. Despite several incorrect guesses by you, she has not identified herself as Native American and has been charged with several counts of violation of law. So yesterday? Not such a good day on the Fact work. Let's hope we see some improvement for the sake of all on this board, and our state. We need less noise and bias. More common sense. I am sure you will improve with mentoring.

Zxcvbnm
Zxcvbnm

@Norwood - No one has been arrested as a result of the June 11 incident in the video. On June 11, the woman was only CITED for taking the camera. On June 21, she was charged with felony robbery and 3 misdemeanors. No one else has been charged.

aspire
aspire

By looking at the video, it's obvious that the eco terrorists we're trying to provoke the workers. Have to be proud of the mine workers that showed so much restraint having to deal with these lunatics.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ aspire - maybe the company planning to destroy the land, the water, and the enviornment better deserves your application of the term "eco terrorists". The people in the video were unarmed - unlike the paramilitary guards hired by Gogebic.

Norwood44
Norwood44

To assert that the mining company's intent, or that of the state and its corresponding agencies who would monitor the mine, are actively trying to "destroy the land, the water and the envioronment (your spelling)" is conjecture given the fact that there is no mine. It speculates intent and outcome of the mine and associated agencies. Perhaps you feel empowered to find people guilty before they have done anything, but that is not acceptable to reasonable people. You have been found guilty of biased hyperbole. You are recused. Oh, and a question. Isn't the computer you work on made of minerals? How can you live with yourself knowing that the earth has been spoiled just so you can post biased opinion as fact? Not good Fiction. Not good at all. Have a nice day.

Comment deleted.
Comment deleted.
AllAmerican11B
AllAmerican11B

SPAMMER GO AWAY, YOU'RE NOT WELCOME ON THIS WEBSITE!!!!

Comment deleted.
AllAmerican11B
AllAmerican11B

Wow, that is a huge pile of assumptions!

AllAmerican11B
AllAmerican11B

I have a questions for those that support the eco-people "protesting" at the mines, some of you are claiming that the company Gogebic Taconite hired the security company to intimidate the eco-protesters; aren't the eco-protesters there for the sole purpose of intimidating the mine employees and the company?

How can you justify the use of intimidation tactics on one side and condemn the intimidation tactics of others?

If it is just fine for a group of masked eco-protesters to enter the areas that the drilling is taking place and intimidate the employees there in an attempt to get them to leave the area or prevent them from working, would any of you have problem with the security from the mine or even the mine employees masking themselves and hunting down the eco-protesters in the woods and intimidating them to leave the area?

I'm just curious how many hypocrites will justify one form of purposeful intimidation from a group and justify the same form of purposeful intimidation from another group.

Just so you know, I am not in favor of the mine. I am also not in favor of the tactics I am seeing from the eco-protesters.

Mad-son
Mad-son

Those tactics, by and large, are civil disobediance. The difference is the protesters are on public land, and the mercinaries are leaving the the actual test sites they supposedly got permission to occupy to intimidate them.

A lot of those protesters, by and large, are also residents, and they have a lot to lose. Intiimidation as an action is actually pretty mild considering they are fighting for their quality of life, and in some cases their livelihoods, not be drained away by corporatists who will abandon the area after they have gorged themselves on the ore and stripped it the land bare.

Or do you actually think they would be taken seriously if they were "polite" about it? This happens after other efforts fail. And they have failed.

aspire
aspire

Madson, not sure where your getting your info. But we all know its false. BTW conservatives protest in a civil way.

Mad-son
Mad-son

Did you watch the video? Their emotions are those of people who will be direclty affected. It's their water that is going to be polluted. And I guess all the surrounding communities who are against this do not also count to you?

Conservatives protest via authoritarian "reasonableness." ... In the end, pretending to be "civil" in order to justify destruction and violence is as effective and devistating via legislation, suspension of and cheating on the legislative proceedure, and court rulings.

Nobody who is really paying attention buys that anymore.

Andy Olsen
Andy Olsen

Bull-loney. I was at both Tea Party rallies in 2011. From the speakers on the podium to the people in the crowds they were nasty and boorish and yelled in peoples' faces quickly. Not all, some would chat.

A tightly wound bunch. They sure do scare easy.

AllAmerican11B
AllAmerican11B

Andy Olsen,
I was recently introduced to the lady who had her ear drum ruptured by one of the anti-Walker protester blasting a horn DIRECTLY in her ear; I personally walked around the capital in the midsts of the anti-Walker protesters and the things that were being screamed by a fair portion of the protesters were certainly not kum-ba-ya, they were nasty, boorish and they yelled in peoples' faces quickly all the time, how about the anti-Walker adults cursing at the young lady speaker at the Tea Party counter rally, that is not to say that there wasn't a large number of people actually peacefully protesting too.

There were not-so-pleasant people on both sides at the capital; however, the hateful anti-Walker ones vastly outnumbered the Tea Party ones, I was there, I saw it personally, I was appalled at the vitriol from both sides.

Norwood44
Norwood44

Grabbing a woman's camer and getting in her physical space is not civil disobedience. It's theft and assault. Don't kid yourself.

Mad-son
Mad-son

Theft and assault is what Gogebic Taconite is going to do to the land and the surrounding communities, "legally" so far.

Not saying what she did was legal either, but somewhat understandable. I have seen LEO's do that all the time...to Journalists covering legit events even, and get away with it.

No one was hurt, and some property was stolen. What she did was extreme, but what Gogebic Taconite is going to do is much, much worse. She will certainly take responsiblity for her actions, which is more than I can say for most of the Politicans and corporate special interests in this matter who allowed this to get to this point.

DriveThru
DriveThru

You should be careful of libeling people. She's a private citizen who does not to appear to have threatened or touched anyone with ill intent--hence no "assault." Try not to be hysterical.

Norwood44
Norwood44

Drive Thru. The girl grabbed the older woman's camera, wrestled with her while she tried to get her property back, and then ran with it. At least have the common sense to admit what is on the tape. The eco activists were taping the entire encounter, but when the older woman took pictures a masked protestor took it from her hands. Have you no shame sir?

Norwood44
Norwood44

Others posted that Screaming Girl was from Stevens Point. So, actually, her water isn't going to be affected. But hey, that's your story and you can stick with it.

Rosalie
Rosalie

Ah, UW-Stevens Point - has one of the best environmental programs around. The protester has probably learned something about how ecosystems work there.

I would like to see environmental courses required in all high schools and collages as part o the basic curriculum.

Mad-son
Mad-son

I just read that too. She can still certainly speak for those who cannot be there, and I would suppose the rest of them she was with had a few locals among them.

Does not change the fact that the water will be severely impacted, no matter who says it, or where they live.

aspire
aspire

Those tactics go way beyond civil disobedience. Just thought I would correct a previous misstatement.

DriveThru
DriveThru

Shouting goes "way beyond civil disobedience." You're hysterical.

AllAmerican11B
AllAmerican11B

Mad-son,
Your use of the phrase "civil disobediance." (check your spelling) and the word "mercinaries" (again your check spelling) are both incorrect. What happened at the mine on day one by the eco-thugs was NOT "civil disobedience" it was criminal, and the personnel are NOT "mercenaries" they are security personnel. Please look up the phrases and words to familiarize yourself with them.

Eco-thugs sole purpose is to aggravate anyone considered opposition to their point of view into a physical confrontation trying to get aggravated assault charges thrown at those they oppose and the reason they carry the video camera is so they can prove the assault charges from THEIR point of view. These people may have root intentions that could be considered admirable, but their tactics are nothing but that of SLIMY THUGS! As they stated in the video, they WILL escalate their nonsense!

Again; I am NOT in favor of the mine. I am also NOT in favor of the tactics I am seeing from the eco-thugs.

Andy Olsen
Andy Olsen

It's not our job to answer for their actions. They will do that in court.

The actions in this video are a stark exception to the approach by the vast majority of the mine opponents. This is not the typical approach.

But that point has been made in this article by Pardella of BulletProof Security and the local Sheriff. Yet you and your ilk keep painting ALL the mine opponents as doing this. You bear false witness.


AllAmerican11B
AllAmerican11B

Here is the video of what transpired during the camera theft incident. The video appears to be genuine. Judge for yourself.

http://www.rightwisconsin.com/perspectives/215062311.html

My personal opinion; the behavior of the female thief simply cannot be justified.

classicagain
classicagain

just ask any liberal and it would be justified in their eyes. They can do no wrong.

AllAmerican11B
AllAmerican11B

classicagain,
That was an unwarranted politicizing of this topic and it's nonsense.

MultiVortex
MultiVortex

Do you really think most liberals really support the actions of these particular extremists on the video? I once went to an anti-war protest in Colorado Springs prior to our invasion of Iraq, and a few of these types (with masks) showed up and stirred up trouble with the police and ruined it for the rest of us 1000s of peaceful protestors. Trust me, most "liberals" (so sick of partisan Kindergarten) I know do not support this kind of behavior. Moreover, environmentalists, who should be equally divided amongst all political persuasions (not just "liberals"), would not tolerate this bad behavior. As a liberal and an environmentalist, I'm appalled by the protestor behavior in the video, but I definitely do not support the mine, as currently planned, nor do I support the disproportionate response with mercenaries.

aspire
aspire

MultiVortex, I can respect that. My view may be different and it would be fair to say not all liberals behave that way. I'm a conservative and also an enviromentalist. But mining is a necessity. Remember the expression,If we don't grow it, we mine it.

aspire
aspire

Why are armed guards ( are there any other kind? ) called mercenaries? Seems there is a little confusion. They are guards not mercenaries. I hope I cleared that up.

DriveThru
DriveThru

Actually, many of us do support this kind of non-violent protest. The political system is a disaster. People have no alternative but to stand up for the common good, because corporate sociopaths own the government and hoes like Walker.

MultiVortex
MultiVortex

I'll engage both of aspire and DriveThru. First, thanks for the kind words aspire. I really wish there was more of this respectful dialog across different points of view and it's all the more compelling in this hyperpartisan era (which is hopefully just a fad). I agree that our current civilization requires a certain amount of resources to maintain itself without reducing the standard of living. Mining is a necessary evil. That has led to conflicting thoughts for me. The problem I especially have with GTAC is in several factors. First, it seemed they wrote the legislation. Second, the legislation circumvents traditional environmental regulations, particularly wetland regulations. That's a bad precedent and those regulations should not be abandoned lightly-they are the result of a long lineage of science and ecosystem study. Third, I wonder if people truly appreciate the wonder of Lake Superior. It really is one of the most special places on the planet. I'd call it a sacred place. Yes, I'm religious (Christian), and I'd call it a gift from God. You have to admit there aren't a lot of places left like it, and had it been protected (all-around, not just parts of it) like Yosemite or the Grand Tetons, maybe this mine wouldn't even be in consideration. This mine will have a traumatic impact on the lake. I just keep wondering if there's (a) a better location for the mine, or (b) a more moderate approach to extraction if the Penokees are the only spot to get quality iron ore. Fourth, I think what's being done to evade the consideration of the Ojibwe people is a travesty. I've been to Bad River ceremonies and this particular tribe really is a great people, really caring and close to nature. They have impacted me in a very positive way. Finally, the mercenary-like guards are over-the-top. They might not be true mercenaries, but they the analog I was making is not far off.

Now, DriveThru, I sympathize with your view. I think a lot of people haven't accepted that our government (both parties, in fact) has been usurped entirely now by some mega corporations (not a free market by any means, nor something Ayn Rand would even endorse). We are truly no longer a democracy. I mean, you could argue we never were, but things are so out of balance today. Still, I don't know if the protestors' approach is at all effective. I mean, they did more to alienate the environmental concerns (everything is about PR these days) than good. What we need are not radicals. We need the public to re-engage. Put down the iPhones, tablets, Facebook, and start to feel a sense of responsibility for the real world around us. Get out in nature and fall in love with it. The natural world is where we come from. It is a gift from God. We are all responsible for fighting for its well-being, lest we face grave consequences.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ classicagain: FICTION

Comment deleted.
pikerover
pikerover

Gotch, In a "moment of illumination" did you ever think the photo might be fake? As in ''posed'' as in GTec wanting an excuse for a ''show of force''. That some of the "Eco-terrorist might me ''plants''. Remember Walker thinking about putting ''plants'' among the protesters in Madison? I ain't sayin' I'm just sayin'.

wiisgreat007
wiisgreat007

Can someone explain to me how the guy in the bag is dangerous and alarming to the Bulletproof Security guards holding assault rifles? A better picture might have been looking up from the Kid's vantage point. I am guessing that would have looked far more alarmingly and threatening. I mean seriously GTAC is really reaching for straws with this "threat".

classicagain
classicagain

Can you guarantee this guy is not threat. What is he hiding.

Mad-son
Mad-son

He can hide anything he wants from them. He is on public land, and they are the intruders of HIS space. As long as he is not within striking distance, he has every right to be there. In fact, by leaving the areas they are assigned to guard, someone could shoot THEM if they were threatned, and it would be self-defense.

They need to back off before someone gets shot. They are not law enforcement.

Andy Olsen
Andy Olsen

Maybe his knees. Keeping his pants dry, and he didn't have a raincoat.

Rosalie
Rosalie

Oh heck, in our younger days, we wore garbage bags as makeshift rain ponchos at Badger football games.

Andy Olsen
Andy Olsen

What if he was hiking, didn't bring a rain coat and only had a black plastic bag for a poncho? And he wanted to sit down and enjoy the forest?

Why is that so weird?

Stuck In The Middle With You
Stuck In The Middle With You

Is the tea party militia standing by?

aspire
aspire

What tea party militia?

Andy Olsen
Andy Olsen

Perhaps this one?

http://www.watchmenofamerica.com/PATRIOT-ALERT-SYSTEM.html

iponder
iponder

Something tells me a legitimate Wisconsin based security firm would have had not trouble handling the crazed Stevens Point woman. Even the most conservative residents in this state should at least be upset by the selection of this firm?

Norwood44
Norwood44

Who is the Stevens Point woman? Has she gone publicly on the record to explain her behavior?

DriveThru
DriveThru

Uh, she made it very clear: she doesn't think some out of state corporation should be able to buy Walker and his gang and destroy our water. Its simple enough even for a republican to figure out. People don't like being poisoned.

BananaSplitz
BananaSplitz

I suspect the activists, like the guards, are probably from somewhere else.

Traderjoe
Traderjoe

Yeah , there from Madison , Stevens Point .....etc

Traderjoe
Traderjoe

*They're * gotta be careful. You guys are sticklers for spellin'

BananaSplitz
BananaSplitz

I have lived all over this state and love it all. Don't generalize, please.

MultiVortex
MultiVortex

The majority of people who care for the environment are not like the people in that video. I'm proudly an environmentalist and from Madison, so you can hate me, but please don't generalize. Hopefully caring for our finite and damaged resources becomes more popular. These are dark days.

classicagain
classicagain

Don't generalize you. Do not most liberals do that to all republicans?

MultiVortex
MultiVortex

Classicagain. Perhaps. I'm personally sick of the petty partisan warfare engaged in and I'm also sick of categorizing people as (A) liberal or (B) conservative. Well my view of humanity is increasingly pessimistic, and perhaps we really are dumb enough to be classified into a binary scheme, but I believe we are intrinsically multidimensional and the political spectrum in America is insulting to who we can potentially be. I have conservative views that would make liberals hate me, and I have plenty of very liberal views (including my views on foreign policy and the environment). Basically, I'm 100% pro-life, before and after birth, making everyone hate me.

Andy Olsen
Andy Olsen

Classicagain, it does not matter what someone else does. That's called situational ethics and it lends itself to self-delusion.

Generalizing is an obvious tactic by the GTAC PR department. Using scare words like "terrorist" to describe opponents.

AllAmerican11B
AllAmerican11B

Andy Olsen,
"Classicagain, it does not matter what someone else does. That's called situational ethics and it lends itself to self-delusion.

Generalizing is an obvious tactic by the GTAC PR department. Using scare words like "terrorist" to describe opponents."

Your second sentence sounds EXACTLY like what loads of Liberals and Progressives on this site spew out every day.

AllAmerican11B
AllAmerican11B

Below I said...
"Your second sentence sounds EXACTLY like what loads of Liberals and Progressives on this site spew out every day."

That should have read...
Your second [paragraph] sounds EXACTLY like what loads of Liberals and Progressives on this site spew out every day, especially the "scare" words like "terrorist" to describe opponents.

MultiVortex
MultiVortex

Amen! Send them all away.

Harvey
Harvey

I suggest every owner of a restaurant, gas station and store of any time refuse service to the mine workers and these mercenaries. Don't rent apartments to them either.

Traderjoe
Traderjoe

That's really smart Harvey. Lets further depress an already depressed economy.

Cornelius Gotchberg
Cornelius Gotchberg

@Harvey;

I'd bet you're the one of the guys Will Rogers meant when he said there would be those who simply wouldn't learn from reading or observation about what NOT to do on an electric fence.

The Gotch

Norwood44
Norwood44

I wonder if Harvey has a government job. If so, economic growth is of no benefit to him. He is set for life.

deernut00
deernut00

That video sums it up, that such low-life even considers themselves qualified to protest. Seems they don't know many words other than the f-word, and the ability to repeat nonsense (as if they own the land they are intruding upon). The video alone justifies the existence of armed guards and some verbal protection. No one should have to take that kind of verbal abuse, let alone the pushing and shoving (and what is with the hiding behind the face covers? ). I dislike the language used in the video, but the video is proof that these workers doing what they are hired to do, were abused. They tolerated it very well, including the lady whose camera was stolen from her. If anyone of the men had stepped forward to assist getting the camera back, there would have been more pushing and shoving thus escalating the situation. Armed guards are the answer and arrest authority is needed as well. They want to act like thugs, treat them like the thugs that they are. Can't have a civil society where uncivil people do damage, or threaten damage, unchecked. And one could take bets that the one stealing the camera with the foul mouth will not get any reprimand from any court.

Mad-son
Mad-son

Blackwater wannabes. If the hired mercenaries were "doing their job" for the certainly large amount of money they get, they would stay at the site and recon from there. Setup a tower, etc. Someone is going to get shot due to their paranoia. I don't agree with strip mining that area, and taking the profits out of state, but they have the GOP behind them...

They are not playing it "safe." Going after the observers/protesters on public land and confronting them, is nothing but a harrasment tactic, and they need to back off before someone gets hurt. There are some "rotten apples" amoung them too.

classicagain
classicagain

Intelligent aren't you. How do you recon from a tower that would have trees blocking your view. Have you pulled your head out of the sand lately

Mad-son
Mad-son

Oh, I don't know, maybe you recon FROM the trees, covering the immediate area around the site itself? Or is that too uncomfortable for washed up ex-military, and LEO? Maybe you limit your recon to an observable perimiter. Maybe you also set up detection devices to monitor that perimiter that you cannot directly observe?

They are assigned to guard, not go on recon missions away from those sites anyway. Outside of the site is still public land. If they can't do that from the site itself, they are outside of their charge.

They are "professionals?"

Harvey
Harvey

"Verbal Attacks on mine workers?" My. My. That is indeed bizarre and scary. Frightening even. Scares me to the very bottom of my soul. I wonder what they would think if they hung out at a downtown bar at bar time. This is the typical Republican M.O. (and make no mistake the G.O.P. owns this). Exaggerate or make up a story to justify a military response. Reminds me of "the next terrorist attack may be a mushroom cloud" argument by Condy Rice to justify going to war with Iraq. How did that work out?

Comment deleted.
fyrgy
fyrgy

I hope it IS your kids or grandchildren who drink the water that will be poisoned from this mining gotch!

paulwesterberg
paulwesterberg

This mine is worth billions of dollars to GTAC. If they have to kill a few people that is just the cost of doing business.

CER2112
CER2112

ah... seems a little over-the-top, couldn't the same outlandish thing be said of extreme activism?

Harvey
Harvey

Ye it could be said of extreme activism as in Timothy McVay, the KKK and NRA.

CER2112
CER2112

don't look now harvey, but i think helen12 is making googly eyes at you

classicagain
classicagain

Hey harvey remember the liberal turds that were destroying automobile lots the turds that break into medical research facilities and destroy years of hard work. Or right in Madison when Armstrong and the other cowards blew up the research area in Madison. Oh thats right those were probably justified in your sick mind.

Rosalie
Rosalie

I suppose anyone not willing to pollute and destroy nature for lots of money is seen by GTAC execs as. "bizarre" and "outlandish" .

CER2112
CER2112

i don't believe they are saying "anyone" - perhaps they are talking about the activists on the video?

It has nothing to do with whether they are for or against the mine. It is ppecifically the weird behavior. Do normal people run around the woods in garbage bags and make elevated areas to watch other workers in the woods?

MultiVortex
MultiVortex

I'm not defending the protestor, but it's possible the garbage bag served as a poncho from the heavy rain. The zig zagging may have been out of fear of gun fire, to maximize target confusion, tree protection. Or, perhaps he's just a nutcase, but just giving reasons that can be thought up with just a little thinking.

classicagain
classicagain

Boy you are out of touch.

920Annie
920Annie

Another example of how Walker and the GOP could care less about Wisconsin. Every reason to go up north now will be gone, spoiled and forever ruined. I am so happy I have the wonderful memories of camping and fishing with my dad up by Crandon, but am so sad that my grandson will never get to have those memories. As for hired thugs, I wonder if the CEO of this mining company validates his life by how many want to take it?

What does Walker have to do with this? So we are to beleive that out of Millions of Acres in Northern Wisconsin, this 4-5 miles long Mine ( that isn't even begun yet) will ruin it all? The fact that anyone is making threats on the life of others is what is wrong. any one arguing otherwise are the ones with a problem.

MultiVortex
MultiVortex

Several things. First, 4.5-mi immediately makes this one of the largest open-pit iron mines in the world. Second, it may extend to 22 mi eventually. Third, this is an essential watershed for the Bad River and ultimately Lake Superior, one of the most beautiful, pristine large bodies of world on the planet, with a ~200-year water cycling (orders of magnitude slower than the other great lakes). The 30-year or so operation of the mine, even with modest acidic and other pollutant runoff, could have a significant impact on the water that goes through the Apostle Islands and elsewhere in many other vacation and ecosystem areas. Finally, this is pretty hostile and inconsiderate towards the Bad River Indians. I get the feeling we haven't progressed much over the last couple of centuries in our value of rich white men over everyone else. I mean, really, when you look at what's happening, the blatant disregard of Bad River, etc, is there any reason to explain this? Well, greed, I guess. This hurts many people, benefits a Floridian billionaire and his recipients of campaign donations. Overall, besides the few jobs it might create.

Andy Olsen
Andy Olsen

Hooray! (They need a like button here)

S54k
S54k

walker signed the bill that allows this destruction to happen. He has everything to do with this. Maybe it's just a small bit to you, but when your grand kids are avoiding this region with their kids because there's no water to drink you'll be turning over in your grave. Or maybe you're just a selfish person who only cares about "me, me, me" in the present. As far as walker is concerned, I hope he is forced to eat the first 3 eyed fish that is caught up there. I think it will go something like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0BwzIihQOI&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Andy Olsen
Andy Olsen

More slanted reporting from the Wisconsin State Journal. No balance in this story, at all, just the rote repetition of anything the mining executives say. They are smearing all the protesters as violent.

Absolutely not true. Several times in the article they mentioned that a few bad apples are the problem. They mentioned that a few extremists are the ones they are concerned about. And you talk about balance and fair reporting?

Andy Olsen
Andy Olsen

Who did they interview for the story? The owner of Bulletproof Security, Wisconsin Manufacturers and Commerce. There is only one point of view presented. There are more points of view than that.

There is a kid using a garbage bag for a poncho, sitting down in the forest and they call that "bizarre and alarming" and it's not questioned? When people are hiking in the woods, sometimes they forget their raincoats and use garbage bags.

The security executive says these paramilitary wielding weapons need to be masked and anonymous. That's ridiculous. Why can't the reporter mention that masked men brandishing weapons are often considered robber or bandits? Or just have a different explanation than the security guy's self-serving justification?

Hence, "slant." There's probably more.


Harvey
Harvey

Look at the photos of Rambo-wanna-be-mercenaries and get back to us.

upnorthlife
upnorthlife

What you're missing here is that this land is open to the public. GTac does not own it. The owners have put the land into the Managed Forest Program which, in return for making it open to the public, gives them a HUGE break on their property taxes. To take it out of this program, GTac would need to remove the land from Managed Forest by paying back the taxes. If they did, they would be free to put up fences and gates and patrol with whatever Rambo types they choose. Until they do that, we are all free to walk up and watch the drilling, pick strawberries, or take a nap in the rain wearing a garbage bag to stay dry. And we should not be confronted with heavily armed thugs.

Under the MFL program it is open to the public for hiking, hunting, and fishing. I don't think you can ick strawberries or take things from the land like that. It is still privately owned and if you cause any damage or vandalism they absolutely Can deny you access. As stated in the article...it is not the hikers or watchers that are a problem. It is the ones who Did vandalism and the online postings of others who are promising to do more that they are protecting against. The "heavily armed thugs" otherwise known as security workers also have the right to walk around the Public access property, so don't get too excited about Your rights and forget about theirs.

sarge
sarge

Interesting. I wonder what "bizarre" behavior on the part of the protestors warrant the sound suppressor clearly visible on one of the security dude's short barreled M4

JRT083
JRT083

If the libs and eco-nuts want the guards to go away, they have the power. All they need to do is call off their own thugs. They will not do so, however.

We have been hearing for years about outlandish and destructive behavior by the eco-zealots. To me it would seem especially unwise and even negligent for Gogebic to not employ security. The incident with the camera is proof of that.

Criticism of the security is being made for one reason and one reason alone. Mine opponents will seize upon anything that they believe with further their cause; even if it is a bunch of nonsense.

fyrgy
fyrgy

Hopefully it's not your kids or grandchildren who drink the water that will be poisoned by this.

Woman46
Woman46

So we are actually supposed to believe a man who was "sneaking" around in the forest is going to lie still long enough, looking straight at the guy with a camera to let him take his picture??? Seriously??? Can you say staged?

Traderjoe
Traderjoe

These photos and videos are "trophies" of the Eco Terrorist. They are posted all over THEIR websites!0

array1
array1

speaking of eco terrorists, wasn't it the republicans who rammed through the mining bill all the while refusing to meet with the people in the mining area? Yes it was.

madlib
madlib

@array1,

Are you suggesting that eco-terrorism is okay because they don't like what the elected governing body did?

Check out their online postings as they already admitted to it.

Comment deleted.
mhazzard
mhazzard

"Greens" don't do "cannon fodder" thats for the feds he looks kind of like a crazy hippy thats why they need assault rifles...

aspire
aspire

Let's focus on the real problem here. Eco terrorists. Don't get distracted.

fyrgy
fyrgy

Other than one lone incident, please provide evidence of "eco-terrorism"?

madlib
madlib

@fyrgy, here you go.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eco-terrorism

aspire
aspire

Did you catch the video?

DriveThru
DriveThru

Yeh, I saw people shouting and avoiding any physical conflict. Its not even criminal, let alone "terrorism." You're so hysterical; spare us.

Comment deleted.
Crow Barr
Crow Barr

Gotch, Blah-Blah-Blah! How DO you sleep at night with all that pent up Blah-Blah-Blah shaking around in your head?

Comment deleted.
spooky tooth
spooky tooth

the grouch, So a kid with a garbage bag should be shot dead? Masked security guards with automatic rifles ready to kill WI citizens, this is the new republican party. Welcome to AmeriKa.

mhazzard
mhazzard

They broke the law no license Bullet-proof should be thrown in jail and fined who are the real marauders here...but they will get a pass from republicans just like they did deleting evidence from redistricting computers...

marauders? Go ahead and fine them for not having the permits. They can hire a different security service tomorrow.

spooky tooth
spooky tooth

Any time a woman breaks a camera its time to shot her dead? Republicans and their goons have gone way overboard.

aspire
aspire

Who got shot?

array1
array1

GT asserts lethal firepower is needed as a camera was stolen

No they specifically said it was in repsonse to threats made online. And it wasn't just a camera stolen. Tehy vandalised equipment, threw rocks and full pop cans at wrokers, threw equipment down the hill, ripped a cell phone from someone's hands and threw in the woods, etc. Has anyone ever come to your work and done something like this to you? If so would your employer do something to protect their employees?

lute
lute

Apparently "sneaking" is now a capital offense in Wisconsin. And masked mercenaries get to make the call on the spot- judge, jury, and executioner. Just another example of the kind of privatization Walker and the Republicans are forcing on the public.

This state is out-of-control! Walker and the rest of the bought and paid for Republicans own this.

They have a right to protect themselves and they have an obligation and responsibility to protect their employees. If you were working there and had been attacked wouldn't you Want your employer to provide security? I know I would.

Did she get shot? The guards are in response to the actions of the protestors. Vandalism and personal assaults. And to the online postings and threats to do more.

dakref
dakref

Nothing like justifying your existence by exaggerating the supposed threat.

Norwood44
Norwood44

Both sides are exaggerating the supposed threat. The mine work is only a study. It has yet to be approved. The mining company is working within DNR and federal testing guidelines. Likewise the threat of both eco activists and the guards is being exaggerated. Although activists have used tree spiking and released mink from mink farms in Wisconsin...that doesn't support the SWAT look. There are legit reasons to want security for a legal activity in the face of activists who could might illegal methods. If the guards are licensed and legal, they should be allowed to protect the site. But GT has made a huge PR blunder and need to communicate to the people of the state in a more intelligent, less arrogant way. How they act now is an indicator of how they will manage the site if is approved. Right now, they are failing to generate anything resembling trust.

Yes, not having the necessary permits is a blunder but they are a private company on private land, so it's really no one's business what they look like. If they want to wear camo, red jumpsuits, or TuTu's who cares what they look like?

BananaSplitz
BananaSplitz

A blunder? A large group of people packing heat have some respect for the laws governing our state. These laws are in place for a reason.

BananaSplitz
BananaSplitz

"...ought to have respect..." is what I meant to type.

spooky tooth
spooky tooth

midofextremeviews, The ground water doesn't stop at the property line. These people have every right to protect their drinking water and habitat.

spooky tooth
spooky tooth

The ground water doesn't stop at the mining property line, these people have every right to protect themselves and their children. For out of state campaign cash the republican party sold WI.

BananaSplitz
BananaSplitz

Fair enough.

Harvey
Harvey

"The next terrorist attack may be a mushroom cloud." Typical Republican M.O.

Harvey
Harvey

Remember when the Chinese government brought in soldiers and tanks to quell the protest in Tiananmen Square? Same thing here but, for now, on a smaller scale.

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