Gov. Scott Walker stirred things up Monday with talk about extending the state ban on public sector union rights to police and firefighters, before downplaying the idea Tuesday.

Walker and Republican lawmakers exempted police and firefighters from Act 10 of 2011, saying that they couldn’t risk strikes by public safety personnel.

At a public event in Milwaukee on Monday, Walker said he would consider expanding the law, and that police and fire workers may now be willing to forgo union rights taken from other government workers — collective bargaining, paycheck dues withdrawals and arbitration to settle disputes with management.

“I think now, for those areas, having seen that the world didn’t come to an end for other municipal employees, there might be a greater opening going forward because they’d say, ‘Hey, you know, things worked out,’” Walker said at the annual Governmental Research Association policy conference.

Leaders of two police unions said their members wouldn’t accept any such change, and they believe the governor knows that.

“He understands that there is an absolute difference between public safety and general employees in this regard,” said Milwaukee Police Association president Mike Crivello.

Crivello said he cautioned officers who called him Tuesday not to jump to conclusions. Walker knows public safety workers face personal danger on the job, and that the union has allowed them to advocate effectively for weaponry and equipment that makes them safer, Crivello said.

“Certainly there is a concern when you hear something like the statement we heard,” Crivello said. “(But) the reason this association has supported the governor in the past is because he truly had an understanding of public safety.”

Public safety unions in Milwaukee are among the few unions that backed him in the 2010 election and a 2012 recall. Fire union officials couldn’t be reached for comment.

The leader of the Wisconsin Professional Police Association union said Walker was speaking as a potential candidate in the 2016 presidential election, not as Wisconsin’s governor.

“What he said would appeal to some extreme conservatives on a national basis,” said Jim Palmer, WPPA director.

The Wisconsin League of Municipalities has pushed to apply Act 10 equally to all local government workers, and assistant director Curt Witynski said he hoped to hear more from the governor.

But Walker on Tuesday said he merely responded to a question about whether Act 10 might ever be expanded.

“This issue is not something Governor Walker is pursuing,” said spokesman Tom Evenson. “If the issue were to arise in the legislature, the governor would take a look at it as he does with many other issues.”

Republicans who control the Wisconsin Legislature said nothing is in the works.

“There has not been any caucus discussion on the topic of expansion,” said Kit Beyer, spokeswoman for Assembly Speaker Robin Vos.

“Senate Republicans have not discussed it as a full caucus, and there are no plans to discuss it in the near future,” said Dan Romportl, chief of staff to Senate Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald.

Walker also riled critics by comparing his collective bargaining law to statements by liberal icon Franklin Delano Roosevelt.

“The position I pushed is not unlike the principle that Franklin Delano Roosevelt — not exactly a conservative — pushed as well when it came to public sector collective bargaining,” Walker said. “He felt that there wasn’t a need in the public sector to have collective bargaining because the government is the people. We are the people. And so what we’ve done is to be able to empower our great employees, to affirm them.”

Phil Neuenfeldt, president of the state AFL-CIO, scoffed. “Gov. Walker is no Franklin Delano Roosevelt and Wisconsin knows it,” Neuenfeldt said. “FDR brought us out of the Great Depression with strong investment in workers and jobs programs that worked. Scott Walker is drowning in a jobs deficit and to compare himself to FDR is laughably delusional.”

— The Associated Press contributed to this report.

Steven Verburg is a reporter covering politics with a focus on environmental issues for the Wisconsin State Journal.

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(269) comments

rbrtpckrbckr

Walker's Act 10 will eventually be repealed. Walker will fade into oblivion, and sanity will be restored.

dogbert

Ha ha police and firefighters you are getting what you deserved now. You really thought you were sacred cows and the wolves were going to leave you alone? LOL! Benefits are one thing but just wait until you have no recourse against management! And wait until the public has to deal with inexperienced people doing these jobs all the time because turnover is going to be huge! You guys made a huge mistake and it will cost you dearly!

Jwills

First off, I would like to say that I respect police officers and firefighters; they have jobs that are not ALWAYS easy, and deserve to have whatever freedoms they need to protect themselves. Now, to the point of this...

As I read this article, I was first overcome with a feeling of, "oh thank goodness it is not just teachers anymore!". But after thinking more on it the disparity and illogical thinking of Scott Walkers original arguments regarding not including public safety workers I. Act 10 started to get to me.

I am a special education teacher, and I must say that I love my job and all my students. I like to think that I am constantly trying to improve my teaching which will hopefully result in high student achievement (Act 10 has not, and will not change this, the kids deserve the best, this is not their fault). However, one large downfall of my position is working with students who are often as dangerous as individuals who public safety workers encounter. As a no reject institution, public schools accept all students, and they should. However, in select cases this means that violent students are being educated in general education classrooms (inclusion is the word). As a special education teacher each year one in trained in defense techniques in order to prevent these students from harming themselves or others. And, these techniques do get used; don't be naive and think it is simply a precaution. So, the question then presents itself: where is the concern for teachers and students safety? Why wasn't the need for us to be able to bargain for safe working and learning conditions considered? And, to be clear injuries do occur; I have had my front tooth cracked in half, been bitten so hard so as to bleed, and been kicked, hit, and punched more times than I can count (not to complain about it, just sharing for information).

WI_Expat

Thank you F or Fhony,

Your diatribe tonight justified every conservative's argument about Obama...and every other liberal for that matter.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ WI_Expat - since you don't live in Wisconsin, maybe you can explain why 13 out of 14 of the top donors to Walker in the recall campaign were OUT OF STATE BILLIONIARES? Maybe you can explain why powerful, wealthy people from out of state gave Walker a $30,000,000 to $5,000,000 donation advantage over Democratic Party opponent Tom Barrett.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/clareoconnor/2012/06/05/gov-scott-walkers-big-money-backers-include-13-out-of-state-billionaires/

Next, you can explain what is NOT fascist about Scott Walker and the Republican Party kneecapping the public service unions, making that disparity in donations all the worse than it would have been, even with out 13 of 14 of Walkers top donors being OUT OF STATE BILLIONAIRES. You see, I happen to think that Democracy means a level playing field, and not giving yourself a 6 to 1 financial handicap in a race. I thought Republicans were all about competition - then why do they make a major donor, unions, virtually illegal, and make their side wide open for the guys with the deep pockets to buy Walker his recall election?

Go ahead WI_Expat, the ball is in your OUT OF STATE COURT.

Maerzie
Maerzie

Of course! With no union rights, we'll have fewer cops and fire-fighters, and Scott Walker will be able to break more laws because the people will have less protection!

ThreadKiller
ThreadKiller

It's interesting in that teachers were an easy target; an easy stereotype to get rednecks to hate. Most of them are women, too. Now they're talking about going after the police and fire fighters who are mostly men. When this started, a general strike was in order and the Teamsters, AFL-CIO and AFSCME should have shut down the state. Walker was afraid of that hence his talk of activating the Guard. My wife would have lost her job in a walk-out, but it should have been done. Right-to-work-for-less must be stopped at all costs.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ ThreadKiller - You're right. Walker never has explained his zeal for attacking public education teachers when the majority of them are women. It seems to fit in nicely with his overall lack of regard for women's rights - such as the law preventing women, veterans, and minorities for filing descrimination lawsuits in Wisconsin courts.

Wisconsin Governor Signs Bill Erasing Workplace Discrimination Damages
Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker has signed a bill that prohibits workers from collecting damages in employment discrimination cases.

The legislation eliminates compensatory and punitive damages for acts of employment discrimination or unfair honesty, according to the Property Casualty Insurers Association of America (PCI). The bill repeals 2009’s Act 20, which for the first time imposed punitive and compensatory damages under Wisconsin’s employment discrimination law.

Under current state law, employees who prevail in discrimination lawsuits can collect between $50,000 and $300,000 in compensatory and punitive damages. The Republican bill blocks anyone from collecting such damages in employment discrimination suits.

http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/midwest/2012/04/09/242583.htm

Charles88

Bet they're glad now they backed Walker. The big boys who tell Walker what to do see their agenda going forward according to plan, especially in WI. Police and firefighters WILL be next, the only question is when. And well they should be! Police for America and Firefighters for America may be start-ups soon, beginning in WI. Businesses object to the concept of paying a fair wage, and that applies to all unionized workers. Can't wait to see these guys singing in the Rotunda. Be ready. Walker's comments were just to gauge reaction.

MadCharles
MadCharles

The left used to call them pigs but today the cops & fire freeloaders are just regular cowards without unions.

graefental
graefental

MadCharles, I hope you're being ironic. You are, right?

MadCharles
MadCharles

I wish. They whine like babies with a dump in their pants. They say FU to the people when it comes to contracts. They run fear ads saying if they don't get their way you'll die. All the while they are still in the top three when it comes to child sex abusers. Yes even higher, but close to priests or public school teacher abuse cases.
Ask anyone fifteen years in if they were ever shot at and they'll say no.
They whine their shifts are boring, hence the donut image and assaulting young women they pull over at night. 99.9% of the time they come after the fact like a bunch of weekend warriors.
If your afraid to answer a domestic violence call or make a traffic stop be a teacher, . They've been militarized and can shoot you dead like a terrorist and get away with it every time.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ MadCharles - What a bunch of vile filth you post here. Pure hatred and lies. And all for the people who risk their lives for us.

DJ_X

Walker is a Hypocrite. Like most of his ilk, he has no consistency, he is Anti-Union, except when he knows it'lll cost too much poltically. It is scary when those in power forego principles for whatever they can do to achieve Power. If you support Walker you are supporting a Tyrant who only operates out of self interest.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ DJ_X - FACT

Dode
Dode

I hereby invite all the police and firefighters to the non-union world. Yes, the grass is greener here and the sun still shines. That sound you hear sucking the money from your wallet will be gone when you tell the unions to leave. Look at all the teachers that never lost their homes after you were told they would. Look at all the schools that haven't failed. Don't believe the union BS.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ Dode - FICTION
Unless you produce evidence showing no harm was done to schools or teachers due to Act 10 then your claim is just more pro-Walker pro-tyranny nonsense.

Portage schools were particularly hard hit - closing schools counts as "school failure" due to Act 10 and the $800,000,000 Walker is taking out of public schools each year, which went hand in hand with Act 10. And by the way, Dode, losing your job - as happened to many Portage teachers - is one step away from losing your home.

The Portage School Board, due to the statewide budget cuts, is forced to go to referendum for $2.6 Million dollars operational referendum!

They say that it will not cause taxes to go up as they are reducing the budget now, and BOY are they. They not only closed 2 schools(including the 2nd ranked school in the state(according to the state's new 'accountability system')). They also recently holed the teachers in their room on a Friday afternoon, then sent the Principle and Vice Principle to walk around in delivering the news or who would be non-renewed next year.

In the National Football League, on cut down day, they call it "the turk". From now on in Wisconsin, the date of renewal/non-renewal for teachers in Wisconsin will forever more be known as "The Scott".

This day in Portage School District, , "The Scott" claimed the jobs(on top of the 2 school closings) of (at least)14 well respected veteran teachers in the Portage School District. These positions were not fringe and they were not "fat". Amongst the cuts were Drivers Ed, 2 English Teachers, A Social Studies teacher, a Home Ec teacher( if no one can afford to eat or own a house, why do we need to know home ec?).

Here is a school district that used the ACT 10 paycut for teachers and still is cutting $3,000,000 from their operating budget! Does anyone really think that a $3 million cut will NOT affect the children's learning experience? Wasn't the end of the teacher's unions supposed to stop this? Did you taxes really go down when your local schools get devastated? Is that the education "reform" that you want for your children/grand children?

http://cognidissidence.blogspot.com/2013/01/act-10-in-action.html

196ski
196ski

Fact or Fiction. Fiction.
Why Act 10?
From WisTax: "Federal Medicaid funding for Wisconsin will be more than $1 billion less in 2011-13 than in 2009-11. As a result, general fund tax dollars are needed just to maintain current spending. In fact, general fund spending at the Department of Health Services—the state’s Medicaid agency—is $1.4 billion (32.5%) more than 2010-11 base spending.
With school aids accounting for the biggest chunk of GPR spending (about 40% in 2009-11), lawmakers looked there for money to fund Medicaid. School aids are reduced $432 million (8.1%) in 2012, then rise $71 million (1.4%) in 2013. To help schools (and other local governments) manage state aid reductions, the companion budget repair bill requires state and local government workers to pay half of their pension costs and removes benefits from collective bargaining. These changes reduce school district costs and cushion some of the aid cuts, but reduce employee take-home pay".

You seem to need this to be solely about Walker, it isn't. Walker ran on the platform of not raising taxes, the only other alternative to making up for the lost Medicaid revenue. Not only did he run on that promise but he was elected twice for following through on it. We all get it, you don't like Walker but if you hope to see him replaced you are going to have to sell the notion of a tax increase to the population of the State. California did it so it is not impossible but those who support that move would be far better served selling the virtues of a tax increase rather than running around calling Walker a dictator or fascist, by the way, he is neither.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ 196ski's "You seem to need this to be solely about Walker, it isn't. Walker ran on the platform of not raising taxes, the only other alternative to making up for the lost Medicaid revenue. Not only did he run on that promise but he was elected twice for following through on it. We all get it, you don't like Walker but if you hope to see him replaced you are going to have to sell the notion of a tax increase to the population of the State. California did it so it is not impossible but those who support that move would be far better served selling the virtues of a tax increase rather than running around calling Walker a dictator or fascist, by the way, he is neither.

1. Walker ran on the promise of creating 250,000 jobs - I'm not sure how that correlates to "not raising taxes", but being a Republican candidate I'm sure he managed to mention it. However, as you know, people in our state are certainly more concerned about jobs than raising taxes. If you have polling information contrary to that let me know. Interestingly, Walker kept taxation down while he was Milwaukee County Exectutive by neglecting property upkeep (in one case this led to the death of a child injured by falling concrete) and by selling off Milwaukee County property.

2. The "elected twice" myth deserves a counterpoint. He lied about two things in election "victory" number 1 – First, creating 250,000 jobs, and second, his intentions to undo over 50 years of labor rights in the public sector. Once he was in, his billionaire supporters (13 of 14 top donors were out of state billionaires for the 2012 recall) stepped up and protected their interests by donating big time to Scott Walker - giving him a $30,000,000 to $5,000,000 campaign advantage over Barrett (who could no longer count on much from public sector union members or their now-decimated unions - that is the FASCISM ISSUE. Walker made a primary funding source for the Democratic Party of Wisconsin essentially illegal with Act 10. That is fascism no matter what you call it or how you color it.).

As for the "dictator" references to Walker, let me know what you call a man who heads up a party that makes numerous attempts to legally block the opposition party from being a viable participant in the electoral process: A) Defund their primary donation source - public service unions by law, and B) Donminate all forms of government: The Governor's office, the legislature, and the supreme court - all of which receive money from Tea Party billionaires that is not matched by donations from remaining Democratic Party funding sources, and C) Agressively re-district via gerrymandering to ensure a minimal 10 year domination by Republicans in the legislature, and D) Try to push through voter restrictions which per a Marquette Univ. Prof. analysis would disenfranchise about 220,000 likely Democratic Party voters, and E) Lie to the public to the extent that you are identified as the most dishonest governor in America according to Pulitzer-prize-winning politifact.com.

I call that anti-democracy aka fascism and dictatorship. Call it neo-fascism or tyranny if you prefer. But don't call Scott Walker a freely-elected leader. Wisconsin is in his grip now, and he in turn is in the grip of his billionaire donors. This is not just a flip of political party control of the state, but indeed a virtual banishing of the opposition party BY LAW with the hope of a fair election for governor in 2014 only a remote possibility.

196ski
196ski

Fact or Fiction
Way to completely miss the point.

Walker ran saying he would not raise taxes, that left few options for balancing the budget (see the explanation from WisTax below). As for the 250K jobs, his term isn't up so technically he hasn't broken that promise.

"As for the "dictator" references to Walker, let me know what you call a man who heads up a party that makes numerous attempts to legally block the opposition party from being a viable participant in the electoral process.."

I would call that man President Obama.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

196ski (below) Let me know how Obama is like Scott Walker when it comes to blocking open competition in elections. I'm sure there must be a good conspiracy theory behind this. Other than that I thought the reason Romney lost in 2012 was that he contradicted himself endlessly and made foolish comments such as the famous "47%" that was caught on video and exposed him for the elitist billionaire he truly is.

I do appreciate you using reasoning and counterarguments rather than insults and name-calling. Way to improve the dialog - and I mean that sincerely.

Traderjoe
Traderjoe

Wrong again FoF-
You can try to cherry pick the Portage School District, but the district was struggling financially long before Scott Walker took office due to declining enrollment not Act 10.

From a 2010 article (pre Walker)

Portage Township Schools enrollment continues to drop

PORTAGE | For the second year in a row, Portage Township School's student enrollment has dropped by nearly 100 students.

http://m.nwitimes.com/news/local/porter/portage/portage-township-schools-enrollment-continues-to-drop/article_2723e2f4-5eee-5806-99ba-fbd28cc4d4df.html?mobile_touch=true

Charles88

100 students is not 2 entire schools. The end of teacher unions was really not about this, but rather the larger picture, for which WI is just the poster child.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ Traderjoe (below), as you know, Dode's comment (above) was made as an absolute assertion, not "except this district or that district". I provided an exception to demonstrate that it was NOT, as Dode asserted, absolutely true that Act 10 and the massive $800,000,000 budget cuts did no harm to teachers or schools. There's a reason why public school teacher morale is at a 25 year low. And the reason is Scott Walker.

Walkers' attacks on public education may originate in extremist right wing groups such as ALEC - but the impact is felt around the state.

Now, if you can explain how Act 10's LOWERING the average compensation of public school teachers IMPROVES student outcomes, by all means do so. If you can demonstrate how taking $800,000,000 a year out of public education IMPROVED the financial situation of the Portage School District, please do so.

With your reference to Portage you illustrate how Scott Walkers cuts to public education took a bad situation and made it worse. And that's a fact. Another fact is that Portage is not alone in its losses. Many school districts are hurting because of Scott Walker.

Dode
Dode

Our schools were being damaged BEFORE Act 10 was passes. That damage was due to the unions. If there was damage after, it was due to the inability of the schools to adapt to a changing world. Adapt or face extinction.

Charles88

Schools don't have to fail in order to be closed. There goes local control, out the window with the neighborhood schools. Stay tuned for more school closing every year. Destabilization is the name of the game.

Charles88

Schools don't have to fail in order to be closed. There goes local control, out the window with the neighborhood schools. Stay tuned for more school closing every year. Destabilization is the name of the game.

spooky tooth

This is a class war between billionaires and unions. One side the Koch brothers, the Waltons, Rupert Murdoch and the Sheldon Adelsons and on the other side teachers, municipal administrators, cops and firemen. The billionaires are not looking for concessions, they're looking to destroy unions and Middle America. The billionaires want a plantation economy based on slavery.

There's been a 30 year war on unions and membership is half of what it was in 1980. It's no coincidence that a huge concentration of wealth happened during this time. 1% of the population has 45% all financial wealth, double what it was a few decades ago. When you take the top 5% they control over 70%. The bottom 80% of the people have just 7%. It would be nice if Fox and Hate Radio would do the math for us when they tell their listeners we're tuning into a socialist country, the truth is we're the polar opposite.

The only way to stop the concentration of wealth and a plantation economy is to vote out puppet politicians and judges. We better do it while we still can, the voter ID law is just the first step the billionaires are taking.

Cornelius Gotchberg
Cornelius Gotchberg

@spooky tooth;

"One side the Koch brothers, the Waltons, Rupert Murdoch and the Sheldon Adelsons and on the other side teachers, municipal administrators, cops and firemen."

The careless reader might suspect that there ARE no Lefty billionaires, but you and I know that's not true, right?

But the Lefty Billionaires have successfull convinced rank-n-file Lefties that the former has a genuine interest in them. All they have to do is feign concern by brushing the paltriest amount of crumbs off the table and all is forgiven in Lefty Land.

They are thus accorded the status of "NICE 1 %ers" and can pillage away unobstructed because Lefty's been bought and has the good manners to stay bought!

The Gotch


busguy

I think what you are describing is what the right did to their base in the 80's. It was called Trickle Down Reganomics. Apparently the left is just slow to follow.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ Cornelius - you'll have a hard time explaining then why the "lefties" (code for communist) billionaires didn't step up and help out Tom Barrett in the 2012 recall election, and why the Tea Party billionaires DID step up and help Scott Walker in the 2012 recall, contributing big time to Walker's $30,000,000 to $5,000,000 donation advantage.

Could it be that all those billionaires making donations to Walker wanted something in return? Like, maybe putting Wisconsin in their control, via puppet boy Scott Walker?

That's why the top 13 of the 14 biggest donations in 2012 came from out of state billionaires. The 2012 recall election was purchased by Walker, not won by Walker.

Gov. Scott Walker's Big Money Backers Include 13 Out-Of-State Billionaires
Wisconsin’s Governor has out-raised opponent Tom Barrett, the Mayor of Milwaukee, by almost 8 to one: $30.5 million to Barrett’s $3.9 million. Of that huge haul, $1.68 million — or, almost half Barrett’s total — came from 14 members of the Forbes billionaires list, all but one of whom live outside Wisconsin.

Walker’s most generous donor does in fact reside in the state. Billionaire Diane Hendricks of roofing giant ABC Supply donated a total of $510,000 to Walker’s campaign — the biggest check for a governor’s race in Wisconsin history .

Hendricks’ contribution came under scrutiny last month when a documentary filmmaker released a clip of Walker telling her he’d be employing a “divide and conquer” strategy against unions. Walker is, of course, fighting for his seat precisely because of his now infamous bill stripping public sector unions of collective bargaining rights.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/clareoconnor/2012/06/05/gov-scott-walkers-big-money-backers-include-13-out-of-state-billionaires/

Cornelius Gotchberg
Cornelius Gotchberg

@FoF;

"@ Cornelius - you'll have a hard time explaining then why the "lefties" (code for communist) billionaires didn't step up and help out Tom Barrett in the 2012 recall election..."

First of all, please call me Gotch; we're BFF's after all.

To answer your question. Billionaires, even the Lefty 'nice 1 %er variety,' aren't stupid enough to jump onto a sinking ship with their cash at the ready.

There's a reason they have all that 'nice' money; they don't knowingly throw it down ratholes.

Even if that rathole says his solution is that he's going to roll up his sleeves, and saying that even after he's rolled them up.

I trust this has been helpful.

The Gotch

graefental
graefental

Spooky tooth--you are one hundred percent correct. And the more Americans who do the math and figure this out for themselves, the lesser chance that we will ever live in perpetual serfdom. Although things sure aren't looking good right now, especially in Wisconsin.

You would have thought that people would have learned from the French and Russian revolutions what happens when you beat a whole nation into the ground. But I'm sure the Kochs and Hendrickses plan on taking most of the world's money with them to the Cayman Islands (or wherever) when they're done raping America.

PapaLorax

just wondering - how do you propose to solve this? price america out of the global marketplace? or confiscation and redistribution?

graefental
graefental

Um, Papa... it's not that difficult.

Let's go back to the America of the fifties, sixties, seventies and eighties... where we had a strong middle class and the oligarchs didn't get to keep all the money for themselves. Izzat clear enough?

PapaLorax

@graefental - uh - no that isn't "clear enough". You didn't say anything. A desire to return tot he 50's isn't a plan.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

Excellent statement, graefental!

Norwood44

Spooky. If this is class warfare between unions and the Kochs, why did more than half of WEAC's membership quit in the last eighteen months? Do they not embrace the struggle? Or do they not see the world the same as you, and so exercised their personal freedom to work as teachers but NOT belong to WEAC whose membership and/or dues was forced upon them prior to ACT 10.

graefental
graefental

They quit because now they're having a hard time making their mortgage payments. Grow up, Norwood. Really.

Norwood44

So Graef. Why are they having a hard time making their mortgage payments? What teacher wages have been cut? Actually, now that they aren't paying WEAC dues, they have MORE spendable income...right? Also, even if some are having trouble paying mortgages, which is true for many Americans, are you saying that they have opted to pay their mortgages instead of supporting the struggle? Does that make them class traitors? Pawns of Walker? Because union dues aren't really that much right? So more than half of WEAC is wandering away from the union over 200 bucks a month? Pretty tepid support of the struggle.

graefental
graefental

Norwood (below):

1) Public employees took big hits to their salaries post-Act 10, in the form of increased pension contributions and payouts for health insurance. You knew that, right? The problem is that the public employees never had a chance to budget for this, and many of them were not prepared. Yes, that IS a problem for society--because if you spent any time at all in one of today's public schools, you would know that our teachers deserve to be well-compensated for the task they undertake every day, what with parents not doing their part to raise their kids and teachers standing in for social workers and law-enforcement professionals. If you want ANYONE to consider a career in public education today, you need to take that into account.

2) Most people including civil servants are people like me and (presumably) you. They want to raise their families and be responsible, productive members of society. They don't see themselves as part of a "cause."

Norwood44

Graef. I can certainly understand the economic stress, but it has to be seen in light of the taxpayer stress during the crash. Highest unemployment in decades. Home prices cratering. Lay-offs. Bankruptcies at an all time high. And for many private sector workers, far less health care and pension benefits than state workers. I would argue you have to look at everyone's economic stress, not just government unions. And yet gov unions have been the entire discussion for two years. Everyone has struggled, not just government employees. In fact, they have had lower unemployment numbers than the private sector. Here's hoping the economy gets better for everyone. And for what it's worth, I think good teachers should be paid more. It is the accountability/protectionism/seniority regardless elements of the contract that were most troubling. But great teachers are incredibly valuable. We have to encourage more talented people to teach. But seniority as the comp model won'd do it.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ Norwood44 (below) "I can certainly understand the economic stress, but it has to be seen in light of the taxpayer stress during the crash."

So your answer is tax relief for billionaires, the very people who benefit most from tax relief and who pay for people like Scott Walker to be elected. That's Scott Walker's solution. The real reason for "taxpayer stress" is all the lies people like you spread about the causes of the recession, blaming unions for the downfall of nearly everything, when in truth unions benefit other workers - causing increased wages and benefits in the private sector since even firms without unions have to compete with union firms and public sector unionized employment.
Facts to consider: How Unions Benefit All Workers

One the reasons that Walker and the Koch brother billionaires attack public servant unions is that suppressing wages in the public sector makes it that much easier to suppress wages in the private sector.

busguy

If the Federal Government passed legislation that removed the NRA's ability to lobby for or promote firearm ownership or gun rights, and limited their operating functions to a level that member consider non-beneficial, then decreased their members ability to support the NRA by imposing 10% tax on income of NRA members, would NRA members continue to support the organization?

PapaLorax

yes

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

This has already been explained to you Norwood44, and yet you come back with the same line of BS. Why?

It has nothing to do with "personal freedom" - it has to do with Walker gutting the unions and making them of no use to teachers AFTER Act 10 was passed. In addition teacher income, due to ACT 10 provisions was reduced on average 10%, AND school districts lost $800,000,000 in state compensation per year so its not like most districts could make up the difference taken by Scott Walker.

You know all this is true, and yet you keep coming back with this idea that WEAC and other public service unions practically enslaved their members, and only Scott Walker, the great emancipator, had the "courage" to set them free. Sorry Norwood44, but you've been caught lying again.

Norwood44

When half of your union leaves the union, its about more than Walker. It's also about the union and its flaws. And no, not everyone knows what you say is true Frantic...because it simply isn't. You can yell and scream all you want but people were finally given a choice. They quit the union. If they believed in the union, they'd stay and fight. Also, all the protections a good worker needs for safety and fair treatment is already provided by the government. Now, scream and whine some more.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ Norwood44 (below) - It seems to me that you don't have an answer for the truths I've just articulated, nor an explaination for the lies you "shared" again. The lie that "Also, all the protections a good worker needs for safety and fair treatment is already provided by the government" sounds good at a Koch Brothers Americans for Progress meeting, or at the MacIver Insitute, or any one of dozens more extreme right wing "think tanks", but it doesn't explain the reasons why unions were created in the first place - protections of workers against the abuses of employers, and fair wages for a days work.

Facts to consider: How Unions Benefit All Workers

Why do you choose to embarrass your self with such silly "arguments" and lies? And the name-calling? Still haven't left middle school in mentality, huh?

ThreadKiller
ThreadKiller

Oligarchs have gotten theocrats to support their agenda by pretending to push forward public representatives of moral authority, ie. Christian Dominionists like Scott Walker or Michele Bachmann. In reality, the Kochs or Adelson (he's a Jew, isn't he?) could care less about morality. They would send their daughters to an abortionist in a NY minute if it was expedient to do so. But there are lots of one issue voters out there who will vote for the guy who promises the bright shiny objects....conceal carry, Right to Life, building a wall to keep Texans from emigrating to Mexico, etc.

PapaLorax

during that time period we had global warming too - must be the unions.
during that time period we had massive illegal immigration - unions.

spooky tooth

PL, do you really believe global warming happened in the last 30 years? And the same for massive illegal immigration? Congratulations you buys all the bs that comes from Fox and Hate Radio.

Charles88

PapaLorax is just asleep at the wheel, and proud of it. Papa, you snooze, you lose.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ PapaLorax - come on, you can do better than that. Respond to the assertions.

PapaLorax

the assertion is the wealth gap cited over a period of time was the result of union weakening. The argument is since x happened over 7 years...clearly x is a result of y. A fact based person as yourself should know that is asinine assumption to make...so I just piled up some additional asinine correlations.

iponder

As Gomer Pyle once said, "Surprise, surprise, surprise!" Unfortunately what comes around goes around.

FBI John Doe Walker

"Things "Worked Out"... What planet is this man from? He's ruining the UW-System and Public Education deliberately! I can't tell you how many teacher live in fear for their jobs, and college profs. can't wait to retire or leave WI. That's not "Working Out". That's destroying the Wisconsin Idea!

Traderjoe
Traderjoe

You have any regrets on your choice of screen name John Doe?????

aspire

Only teachers who perform poorly should be cocerned about potentially loosing their job. Thought I'd clarify this.

Norby

You are looking at this backwards. We should be looking at this long term. The question is not why teachers like myself are retiring. The real issue is the declining number of college students going into education as a career. I think our society will pay a heavy price 10 - 15 years down the road. Admit it, as things stand, would you select teaching as a career? Many college students are voting with their feet.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ Norby - FACT

Charles88

Aspire, that's not how it's working out though, is it?

PapaLorax

those teachers had an absurd rationalization that the union was helping...they weren't


Leaders of two police unions said their members wouldn’t accept any such change, and they believe the governor knows that

LOL - That is what Marty and Mary said too

rjd_in_gb

Wisconsin had a collective bargaining law that evolved over a period of 60-70 years that was intended to provide a fair and peaceful solution to labor disputes and keep pace with fair compensation in accordance to the State taxpayer’s ability to pay. Resolution to disputes was encouraged through good faith negotiation, and if impasses, mediation, fact finding, and arbitration. The resolution process always favored as highest priority, the taxpayer’s ability to pay and interests of the public employer entities.

But via propaganda, too many WI residents and taxpayers were hoodwinked to hate on public employees as if they were a second class citizens and falsely blamed as the sole cause of rising taxes. Wealthy people and corporations had their income taxes reduced yet when property taxes went up, they had the perfect scapegoat to point to public employees as the culprit. So, they convinced the same wage earners of the shrinking middle class to kill the law that gave structure and fairness to the process of compensating public employees. And, the wealthy interests created a poison atmosphere of scapegoating and hating on these public employees.

This issue will not be resolved in this climate of ALEC, Koch, Teaparty propaganda and scapegoating until public employees clearly demonstrate that they ‘were’ in good faith and the collective bargaining process evolved for a reason; to keep labor harmony in the interest of moving OUR STATE FORWARD. Until the soft public employees reach a rock bottom with no place to go but assert their collective worth, this situation will continue to spiral down for their economic interest and well-being. They will need to collectively assert their worth to folks who think that not having a proper evolved and peaceful structure to recognize their economic needs via collective bargaining is a good system. The only substantive method is by withholding their labor. Until soft public employees understand that great sacrifice and yes-risk to their job status must be undertaken to assert their value to these people who have banned together to scapegoat them, their plight will be the downward spiral. Yes, general strike or walk-out is the one and only ultimate answer to why we ever had the decent and evolved, fair and equitable solution of collective bargaining structure for public employees, in the first place. It is time to assert, quite whining, and take the hard decisions. Walk-out!!! See if the simplistic solutions to general walk-out of “fire them all” that folks like Norwood and TomTom would retort, could stand or are unrealistic blather to induce fearin public employees to assert collective action.

aspire

Supports the reason why the cba had to go in regards to public employees. Thank you.

graefental
graefental

aspire, there are plenty of third-world dictatorships where life is even harder than it is in post-Walker Wisconsin, and freedom of speech is even more suppressed. You'd obviously be happier in one of them. Why don't you move, and quit pretending to be an
American?

graefental
graefental

rjd_in_gb: This is nothing new. Hitler did EXACTLY the same thing with the Jews during the 1930s, in his lead-up to invading Poland and starting WWII. It's classic Machiavelli--distract the people from your real agenda by providing a scapegoat. That is obviously where Walker got his "Divide and Conquer" ideology. We in America just didn't expect anyone to use Machiavelli against us, since we're used to living in a pluralistic democracy.

And yet, it happened.

I am ashamed of my fellow Wisconsinites who fell for this ploy, even after Walker was caught discussing it on camera with Diane Hendricks. I always thought most of us were better than Hitler's "good Germans."

Norwood44

So you're saying the Wisconsin National Guard is going to INVADE POLAND!?
This is getting interesting. How do we do this when we don't even have a navy? Maybe we could use the Wisconsin Dells Ducks I guess, but still, the Atlantic Ocean is a waaaay bigger crossing than the Wisconsin River.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ Norwood44 - That was the least ingenious STRAW MAN ARGUMENT you've tried to date. It isn't funny either. With all the practice you've had, I would have thought you'd at least make more convincing fallacious arguments by now.

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:
Person A has position X.
Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
Person B attacks position Y.
Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

Badger911

tomtom33

Federal employees cannot collectively bargain. Why should CB have anything to do with Federal funding?
The Federal Transit Act "requires the continuation of any collective bargaining rights that were in place when the employer started receiving federal funds."

Wisconsin Cities could lose $70-75 million in Federal Aid if Transit workers lose their CB rights.


Badger911

Forgot the link:

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/116284394.html

tomtom33
tomtom33

Thank you. I am too lazy to follow this in any depth. I don't know why the Feds would be concerned about local government CB when they do not allow any. Does that make any sense to you?

aspire

Badger, ask yourself why?

ThreadKiller
ThreadKiller

Because, the Feds won't give WI matching funds for non-union transit. Read up on it before you remove any doubt of your foolishness by opening your mouth or typing in this case.

PapaLorax

sounds like terrible federal policy...i hope people put the blame where it should be...right back on the feds.

Zoltan

Scott and Michele--the dynamic duo for 2016. Police and Firefighters, not to worry! Scott Walker didn't use you as a wedge between himself and other public employees, that would be suggesting that he insincere and unethical--perish the thought...he is an honorable man. Just one look at his job resume before entering politics speaks to his hard grinding, worldly experience: three years of college and several years fund raising with the Red Cross. How dare anyone suggest him unfit to fill the shoes of FDR.

ThreadKiller
ThreadKiller

Anyone that supports Walker and who doesn't have at least 6 zeros behind their income is what I call a Republican serf. Now - bend to the alter of your masters and prepare for your next task....they need your votes. After all - companies like Walmart need tax subsidies to make the obscene profits that they do and the middle class earners will be providing those. On the other hand, do a little soul searching here. If companies - include Diane Hendricks too - were paying their people fairly, less people would need BadgerCare and W2 housing, and SMALL business would thrive in our communities again on the capital that was being spent there. The Waltons and the Diane Hendricks of the world would still be filthy rich, but we wouldn't be trapped in this race to the bottom that has only the bottom at it's ending point. Wise up! This agenda that the Republican Party - Wisconsin particularly - only benefits the the uber wealthy, not people in the middle class, not people in the 1% either. We're talking about folks that YOU don't know.

Norwood44

Thread. It is possible to oppose union abuse and support Wall Street reform. These are not two concurrently untenable positions. Also, why has WEAC, according to jsonline, lost half of its membership since ACT 10 was passed? Could it be that once free to decline membership, more than 50% chose that option? Why? One can oppose union excesses and Wall Street excesses at the same time. Both interests are huge political money players. Also, there are a lot of Dems who have zeroes at the end of their paycheck. A quick look at President Obama's fundraising success can offer you some perspective.

ThreadKiller
ThreadKiller

The unions can't do anything for them economically which is where most people see the most benefit. The unions also can't act as arbiters in labor disputes such as workplace issues; look at what's happening to the prison guards in WI. It was all by design. But you knew that because you hate unions.

Norwood44

But if unions are so good and important, why don't all the members remain loyal to the union and support it during this politically volatile time? Are you saying that half of the WEAC members abandoned the union simply because it was practical and cost-effective ? What about the struggle for workers' rights ?

tomtom33
tomtom33

Unions can still benefit their members economically. Ever hear of lobbying? That's how everyone else has to do it.

Traderjoe
Traderjoe

The Walton's and the Hendricks and yes, the Koch's are just the job creators that Goverment should support. Wages are set by the market. If the wages were too low and conditions SOO horrible, they would not be able to keep any employees and would go out of business.
There are plenty of middle class voters that support this.
I also think people like you would classify ANY profit, not your own, as obscene !

busguy

Are you implying that the gov't should subsidize these companies?

Let's be honest, none of these companies, or any company is a "job creator". They are wealth creators. They use a product or service to create wealth, not jobs. A "job" is a resource that is consumed to create wealth.

The low wages that companies pay are allowed because of the social programs that exist to subsidize them. If thses programs didn't exist it would probably change the employment landscape. Companies that rely on these programs to subsidize their workforce are no better than employees who use these programs to subsidize their lifestyle.

ThreadKiller
ThreadKiller

That's what he said. He's a fascism supporter and probably a Republican serf who doesn't have enough money to be on that side.

graefental
graefental

busguy, the only wealth these companies create goes to the upper echelon. That's the way Wisconsin works. The rest of us (probably you too) are fighting to stay alive.

You'll be the next to be thrown under the bus by your overlords. Join the resistance before it's too late.

ThreadKiller
ThreadKiller

You would assume......but you would be wrong. Profits should not be dictated by whether or not you can lobby the government to subsidize employees through W2 or Medicaid (BadgerCare) because you're too greedy to pay a person enough to live without those things. Profits would still be there, yet there would be real competition to create business and those businesses would be locally owned for a large part and the money made would employ local workers and be locally spent. That's called capitalism. What you're referring to isn't capitalism, my uniformed friend. Actually - I don't have friends that think like you.

tomtom33
tomtom33

Profits are not dictated. They are earned.

graefental
graefental

tomtom33 (my favorite guy, below): Yeah, and you'll be singing that same tune when your employer decides (which he/she will, any day now) that you should either work for minimum wage, or have your job farmed out to some third-world backwater. Walker has given the green light for all of those shenanigans, which is why Wisconsin is on the fast track to becoming the poor orphan of the industrial North. Do you ever talk to your friends and neighbors... or is Walker actually paying you to say these things?

tomtom33
tomtom33

grae, I was my employer. If my business did not earn any money, I got nothing. If I got nothing, I would have had to go out of business. My employees would have lost their jobs.

If you win your fight against business, you will be out of a job. Business generates the tax revenue to pay for everything.

Tpartywarrior
Tpartywarrior

After all the press releases, headlines, tweets, and blog posts about Wisconsin being 49th in six month economic outlook, and liberal Democrats crowing about it endlessly- the Philadelphia Federal Reserve Bank released new numbers on Tuesday.


And Wisconsin now ranks 5th in six month economic outlook. For those keeping track, Wisconsin was ranked 49th, then revised to 40th, then jumped to 20th, and now is sitting pretty at 5th in the nation.

Wis_taxpayer
Wis_taxpayer

And where are we in job creation compared to the rest of the nation, 11th ? like we were when Walker took over.

Traderjoe
Traderjoe

Let me reiterate.....

According to the Federal Reserve Bank of Philadelphia........ the May numbers (released in June) saw Wisconsin jump to 20th. And with new numbers out today for June, Wisconsin is now ranked 5th in new rankings among states on their six month economic outlook. That's 40th, to 20th, to 5th in just a couple months!
And...........
From CNBC-
........As for the states that are creating the most manufacturing jobs, the chart shows the ranking, as Michigan tops the list followed by Texas, Indiana, Ohio and Wisconsin.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/100832195

Wis_taxpayer
Wis_taxpayer

As usual Joe you have your facts screwed up... the Fed is talking about economic growth for Wisconsin, not job growth, two entirely different things.


But if it makes you feel better to conflate the two and argue them as one, go right ahead.

Charles88

So where exactly are those jobs? List please.

graefental
graefental

This state is in the toilet bowl. Look at all the shuttered storefronts, and all the people out of work. Most demoralized workforce in the nation. We aren't going anywhere until we get rid of Walker, and you can take that to the bank.

tomtom33
tomtom33

Try glasses.

Stuck In The Middle With You

So many cannot see the Ritchie Rich Republican goal is turn the common man and woman into corporate and government serf's while they reap the rewards. It's high time to rise up, stand up and fight.

aspire

Stuck, it's always been a goal of liberal elites to illiminate the middle class. Ask obama, he's doing pretty good

Charles88

illiminate? Sorry, aspire, but anyone over the age of 14 understands that liberals LOVE the middle class. Where are you reading this misinformation anyway? do you not pay attention to politics at all? O'Bama is in reality a "moderate Republican".
No real Dem supports things like cuts to Social Security and the chained CPI. That's your conservatives and your Repubs.

Wis_taxpayer
Wis_taxpayer

So Walker got his Act 10 passed and survived the recall mostly because he exempted Police and Fire from Act 10

The public unions warned the Police and Fire it would only be a matter of time before Walker came for them as well.... they didn't believe it and threw their support to Walker.

Now Walker is going after the Police and Fire..... the public unions Walker went after are now warning the private unions that Walker will come for them as well.

Wait until Walker extends his Act 10 to include private unions.... think it won't happen, that's what the Police and Fire said.

Traderjoe
Traderjoe

Walker did not pass Act 10 by edict , he was supported by the branches of state Goverment as well as hhe Majority of the voters in the State. ANYTHING that he decides to do will also need the support of those same groups.

This is what Democracy looks like. It does not change just because you are in the Minority!

Wis_taxpayer
Wis_taxpayer

Obama did not pass the Affordable Care Act by edict, he was supported by the branches of Government as well as the majority of the voters in the country. ANYTHING that he decides to do will also need the support of those same groups.

This is what Democracy looks like. It does not change just because you are in the Minority!

Valid argument for once Joe.... So tell your party to stop having meaningless votes to repeal it!

Traderjoe
Traderjoe

Straying off topic again wisc_tax. Focus. Focus. ....

aspire

Fact 67% of the country does not want obama's single payer, gov. Run health care.

hankdog

trader:

wis_tax may be off the subject, but he proved your hypocrisy. Good for the goose, good for the gander.

Norwood44

According to jsonline, since ACT 10 was passed, WEAC has lost more than half of its membership. AFCSME has also reported loss of thousands of members. So it begs the question, how right was it to have union membership and dues imposed on so many people who, once free to decline, did so? It would also be interesting to find out the specific reasons so many WEAC members left the union? Was it a rejection of its politics? A confidence in representing oneself vs the union? Frustration with return on dues or leadership, or simply that they many teachers had problems with the basic union model? Or even that some teachers are independent or Republican voters? When given the option, over half of WEAC members have left the union. Why?

TheRestOfTheStory

Norwood, it doesn't beg that question at all. The reality is that most people are not stupid. They see that if a union is totally stripped of it's power to negotiate then there is no use putting money into it until such time as Act 10 is repealed and the workers regain the right to negotiate. Just like in the private sector.

You do realize that there are laws that prevent State workers from striking at most places, right? So, what other choice do these people have.

Your argument is silly. The why is self evident to those with half a mind and not just trying to make up talking point and deflect the subject into the spin zone.

Norwood44

Rest. But union members could easily remain in the union, and pay their dues to fight ACT 10...right? Half of them haven't. Why?

Crow Barr
Crow Barr

Maybe, their compensation lags the private sector so badly, and with no collective voice and legally unable to strike, paying dues now is the same as a membership in the local historical society.

Here is the plan: Dump the rest of the Public Workers Unions, turn Wisconsin Retirement System over to Myth Robme type's, make Wisconsin a right-to-work state and lastly, change the State name to "Wississippi! Kinda has a "Jindal" to it, eh?

Norwood44

Crow. Where is your data that total comp lags behind public sector workers? Let's say a teacher makes 50K. Then there are benefits which add another 20K. And then you work only nine months. So if you were to pro-rate the comp for twelve months of work a teacher's total comp could get near 100K. Many teachers like the profession BECAUSE they get the smmer off. They know this going in. My point, teachers are compensated at a pretty fair monthly rate.

marlori

Norwood-- how does 70K turn into 100K if there is no work in the summer? Your math does not work-- if you don't work, you don't get paid-- it sure is silly to keep pointing at the summer off as if it is a vacation-- it is not paid! (Some districts do spread that 50 K into pay periods over the 12 months for easier budgeting-- otherwise it is a long time between June and Sept. That kind of spreading over 12 mos is a relatively recent development.) Many educators would prefer to work year round--it is better for the students. I have seen people claiming the unions wouldn't "allow" it, but that also is not true, the state of WI is who set the calendar so that school could not start until after Labor Day-- this is for the benefit of state tourism. In any case, 70K in pay and benefits for the amount of education and certification required to teach, is not an exorbitant amount. Yes, job security was a good reason to earn less than in the private sector, but nothing wrong with job security either. That and liking teaching are fine reasons to teach. When the private sector tanked, resentment developed, and politicians have use that to their advantage. So sad for the state of WI. Better for all if private and public sector workers could work together for the good of everyone's fair wages and good services.

Norwood44

marlori. good question. read the post again, I said if you pro-rated the monthly pay across a full year of work it would equate to a very good annual salary. Teachers make a conscious decision to work on a nine month contract. Many gain outside income during the summer. So my point is that the monthly pay and benefits are very fair by current private sector standards.

Jwills

Norwood - most teachers do not make 50k per year though. This is a number that reflects only some, not the majority.

aspire

Norwood, good points. All of which have merit.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ aspire - FICTION

pete
pete

FoF said: "Let's remember that Scott Walker also took $800,000,000 a year from our public schools - that's his idea of "flourishing"?"

This followed your comment about Chicago and Detroit. Let me ask, would you rather be a teacher close to retirement in Chicago, Detroit or Madison? Imagine putting 30 years in and being told you're going to get pennies on the dollar for your pension (see Chicago and Detroit). To top that off, the party you voted for are trying to legalize 11 million new people and bring them into the job market with a swipe of a pen. dropping wages and taking job opportunities away from needing part time employment post retirement. Brilliant stuff. Gotta be a rich person somewhere to blame, where did he go?


Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

Following your line of reasoning, pete, Detroit or Chicago would be much better off as Scott Walker suggests, if only they had followed his example and deprived public school children of $800,000,000 a year.

At some point you've got to admit that Walker is "Brilliant stuff".

Charles88

Walker's just getting going. Teacher pensions can still be stripped, same with police and fire. He just can't do it all at once.

digger

“Senate Republicans have not discussed it as a full caucus, and there are no plans to discuss it in the near future,”
Anyone wanna bet?

.

fluteplayer

"Discuss among yourselves" -- but only in groups of four or fewer.

morninmist
morninmist


"as a full caucus" are the key words.

pat99835
pat99835

Is everyone in Wisconsin deaf. Walker said he was going to divide and conquer the unions prior to his election. What is the surprise in this? You voted for him. Live with it, or vote he and his republican rabble out of office.

tomtom33
tomtom33

After all the histrionics, I doubt that there are many who don't know what is happening. The majority voted for that to happen, twice. But the histrionics continue. You can't please 100% of the people 100% of the time - ever.

Nav

tomtom, unable to face reality, you keep going back to the pat. The political scene is likely to be VERY different in 2014 when the Governor runs for re-election. Past performance does not guarantee future results.

tomtom33
tomtom33

It will be different. So far it looks like it will be worse for Democrats.

Charles88

also will be worse for police and firefighters, Dem or Repub.

Nav

Some of us knew it would come to this a long time back. Our Governor has a deep "hatred" for anything that has the word "public" in or around it.

In the long run, of course, it will cost the Governor more support something he cannot lose in the 2014 election as over 46% (at least) of the voters are ALREADY eager to get rid of him. This number can only get higher as we head into the election.

tomtom33
tomtom33

Some public unions people do have a deep hatred for Walker. From where I sit, He has gained support. Either way, the vote doesn't come until a year from this fall. It really doesn't matter where anyone stands today.

I don't believe that any public employee should be able to collectively bargain for anything.

fluteplayer

tomtom, if Walker is "gaining" support, who are his new supporters? Some who supported him in the past may support him more now, so there is more intensity, but from what I hear, people who once supported him do no longer. So where is this "gain" coming from?

aspire

Flute, step outside of madison, his popularity is growing.

Wis_taxpayer
Wis_taxpayer

His support is coming from the bus loads of Americans for Prosperity that they are bussing into Wisconsin to sing at the Capitol.

Walker has all the support money can buy.

lmjohnson532

Flute -- most of them are probably political power players from out of state.

Nav

Logic dictates Walker is losing support. He is further dividing the people of Wisconsin, and the people have had enough of it. The people of Wisconsin need to END this drama by electing a sensible, no drama Democratic Governor who will heal this state.

tomtom33
tomtom33

Logic?

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ tomtom33's "I don't believe that any public employee should be able to collectively bargain for anything.

You might feel differently if you valued democracy. Maybe there is connection between your disdain for democracy, your living outside the USA, and your opposition to public servant unions.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

It is nearly impossible to tell if Governor Scott Walker is really this stupid, or if he just sees it as his moral duty to lie to the public.

Here's a quote from a story on Walker's latest anti-union revelations, taken from the Madison 3000 story and the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel
"Gov. Scott Walker says Detroit would not be bankrupt and Chicago public schools would be flourishing if those cities were in Wisconsin and operating under the state's public union laws.
http://www.channel3000.com/news/politics/Walker-says-his-public-union-philosophy-like-FDR/-/4030/21242068/-/4b342k/-/index.html

Let's remember that Scott Walker also took $800,000,000 a year from our public schools - that's his idea of "flourishing"?

Let's also remember that there is absolutely no evidence, anywhere, that teachers unions or any other unions are to blame, or at fault in any way for the financial problems of Detroit. Many other cities across the nation have unionized work forces. Are we to expect that every large city is now headed for bankruptcy?

How does Walker create the rationalization that paying workers LESS and making their benefits WORSE, as does Act 10, create a vibrant economy and outstanding public schools? Where in the private sector do companies find better employees and gain greater productivity and effectiveness by paying workers LESS?

Lets take the healthcare industry for example. Let's say Scott Walker suddenly suffers a brain aneurism and is rushed into surgery - "Wait! Says Scott Walker - my primary concern is the hospitals bottom line. Please, I beg you! Make sure the lowest-paid surgeon works on me. I want the best possible financial outcome for the hospital. Oh, and I waive all might rights to a malpractice suit if anything goes wrong because of using the lowest paid surgeon, rather than the best, most experienced surgeon you have.

That same application of total disregard for positive, healthy outcomes for the patient is what Walker applies to education. Give the schools LESS and expect the BEST outcomes. Pay the workers LESS and demand they perform BETTER.

Such nonsense is what Walker now expects of our Police officers and Fire Fighters - do a more with less, and be sure to thank me for it.

There's a word for Walker's approach to getting more for less: insanity.

Reply
Reply

"It is nearly impossible to tell if Governor Scott Walker is really this stupid, or if he just sees it as his moral duty to lie to the public."

Why wouldn't he lie as long as he can prosper off a sect of the population who unequivocally idolizes every word he says?

Best as I can tell, the staunchest proponents of his doom-ladened philosophies back them for one of two reasons. They're either ...
... deep into prospering from the underhandedness, or
... so fiscally desperate that the absurd seems logical.

BTW, great "brain salad surgery" thing.

Traderjoe
Traderjoe

"Let's also remember that there is absolutely no evidence, anywhere that teachers unions or any other unions are the blame......."

I am sure that you , FoF, will not see the correlation between the Union's inability to grasp the gravity of Detroit's financial crisis, but just maybe the audacity of actions like this will help sane people understand that , yes , the Teacher's Union and other public sector Unions selfish inability to bend and work with Goverment are one of the MAIN reasons for Detroit's financial woes.

From the Detroit News

Detroit —
Bonus to 8,000 employees of Detroit Public Schools by Emergency Financial Manager Roy Roberts — despite a $75 million deficit in the beleaguered district, which has endured repeated rounds of school closings and teacher layoffs.
The president of the school board, which has battled Roberts in court over control of the state's largest school district, questioned the wisdom of paying bonuses and accused Roberts of overstepping his authority. The bonuses are on top of
a 2.5 percent wage restoration for unionized employees, negotiated in a March court settlement, that's expected to arrive by the end of the month.
http://www.mcteviallc.com/downloads/news_91_2106930411.pdf

Also, Union pension liabilities represent 14% of the city's total long-term obligations and retiree health-care liabilities totaling $5.27 billion account for 38% of the obligations.

And with new numbers out today for June, Wisconsin is now ranked 5th in new rankings among states on their six month economic outlook. That's moving up from 40th, to 20th, to 5th in just a couple months.

It's Working in Wisconsin !

Traderjoe
Traderjoe

Forgot to cite my source on the jobs numbers......whoops

http://www.philadelphiafed.org/research-and-data/regional-economy/indexes/leading/2013/LeadingIndexes0613.pdf

spot on

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ middleoftheroad - FICTION

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ traderjoes'...the Teacher's Union and other public sector Unions selfish inability to bend and work with Goverment are one of the MAIN reasons for Detroit's financial woes.

FICTION

Sorry, but compensating public employees fairly does not equate to the bankruptcy of a city. Nor do pensions. Plenty of other cities and states manage their salaries and pensions and work with unions just fine. Detroit's situation is incredibly complex and laying the blame at the feet of the unions is intellectually ignorant and dishonest.

Nav

I don't know if the Governor is this stupid or not, but his decision to potentially go after police and firefighter unions is not rational. I cannot understand the logic behind that.

It is possible that he has concluded that the vast majority of the firefighters and policemen are already against him, so stripping them of their union rights would be perfectly ok. I suspect there is a more sinister reason. He may be trying to take away the argument from ACT 10 opponents who are arguing in the Supreme Court that Act 10 is unconstitutional because it discriminates between public employees.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ Nav - yes, I think you are correct.

196ski
196ski

ForF, please consider that Walker was elected on the platform of not raising taxes. With the money from the Federal stimulus package gone either taxes were going to have to be raised or cuts were going to have to be made. The legislature, not Walker alone as you continually claim, passed legislation shifting money from education to the States Health Services department. The net result is State workers took a pay cut and the unions were stripped of SOME of contract items they could collectively bargain for. Given the massive economic upheaval the entire country has gone through that is hardly the end of the world and nor does it make Walker either a fascist or a dictator.

Your issue is not Walker or the Republicans, your issue is that your wages were cut. If enough people in the State agree with you and are willing to have their taxes raised to restore your pay then Walker will be replaced, if not he and the enacted policies will stay. Keep in mind that as passionate as you are about YOUR wages, taxpayers are equally passionate about hanging on to their earned income so they are not forced to take a pay cut.

Time will tell but replacing Walker may be a very tough challenge.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

196ski, you are grasping at straws. I've never claimed Walker affected my personal income or wealth in any way. My problem with Walker is his fascist attack on democracy, by virtually destroying public servant unions he significantly defunded the Democratic Party of Wisconsin.

That's the way Walker's Billionaire Buddy club likes it, and why 13 of the top 14 donors to Walker's 2012 recall campaign were out of state billionaires. These people are not concerned in any way about the taxes paid by the average Wisconsin citizen, who by the way makes about the same salary as the average Wisonsin teacher, but about using Walker to their own financial advantage, especially in the reduction of taxes on corporations.

Since the schedule of taxation on businesses is decreasing under Walker, to nearly nothing, these out of state billionaire business owners are getting what they wanted. They could care less about the quality of education or other vital services in Wisconsin - they are modern day robber barrons.

I do agree that "replacing Walker may be a very tough challenge" - until out of state billionaires are prohibited from making financial contributions in Wisconsin elections. Let's limit campaign donations to Wiscoinsin resident citizens ONLY, and see if Walker can pull off another election purchase like he did in 2012.

Gov. Scott Walker's Big Money Backers Include 13 Out-Of-State Billionaires
Wisconsin’s Governor has out-raised opponent Tom Barrett, the Mayor of Milwaukee, by almost 8 to one: $30.5 million to Barrett’s $3.9 million. Of that huge haul, $1.68 million — or, almost half Barrett’s total — came from 14 members of the Forbes billionaires list, all but one of whom live outside Wisconsin.

Walker’s most generous donor does in fact reside in the state. Billionaire Diane Hendricks of roofing giant ABC Supply donated a total of $510,000 to Walker’s campaign — the biggest check for a governor’s race in Wisconsin history .

Hendricks’ contribution came under scrutiny last month when a documentary filmmaker released a clip of Walker telling her he’d be employing a “divide and conquer” strategy against unions. Walker is, of course, fighting for his seat precisely because of his now infamous bill stripping public sector unions of collective bargaining rights.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/clareoconnor/2012/06/05/gov-scott-walkers-big-money-backers-include-13-out-of-state-billionaires/

Stuck In The Middle With You

This is a great example of how Walkers game plan works, off handedly throw out this comment, then wait for the feedback, backtrack a little on your own statement then direct your legislator step n fetchits to start pushing the legislation that he knows will pass and his pen seals the deal. He knows he has to make this happen before his presidential run as it will be the perfect conservative feather in his hat.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

Stuck... I think you've summed up Walker's method of operation quite well.

Delilah_Jones
Delilah_Jones

The only question is which minion will propose this. I'll put my money on Grothman.

PapaLorax

Walker hardly created the "trial balloon" method of governance.

fluteplayer

Exactly. "If the legislation is there, I'll look at it." Yes, and he will sign it. We must always remember his commitment to Diane Hendricks to remove unions from the state of Wisconsin.

Wis_taxpayer
Wis_taxpayer

Recall final vote count:

Scott Walker (R) 1,334,450 53.1%
Tom Barrett (D) 1,162,785 46.3%

Now add another 1,000,000 to the Democratic side due to Walker
Signing Anti abortion bill
Kicking 30,000 men, women and children off of Badger care
Turning down high speed rail
Gutting education
Expanding his Act 10 bill to Police & Fire unions
Tax cuts for the rich
Lying to the public (number one lier in the nation)
Refusing federal money for Obamacare
Refusing to set up the health exchanges
Voter ID suppression laws
and on and on and on.....


Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ Wis_taxpayer - I wish I was as confident as you are in those numbers.

Walker has kneecapped the unions and thereby choked off a major source of donation money to the Democratic Party. The primary reason Walker had that nearly 8 point advantage over Barrett is due to the advertising advantage that a $30,000,000 to $5,000,000 margin gave Walker.

It is good to see that Walker is slipping in the public opinion polls, but I'm not sure that is going to "get out the vote" for whomever ends up being the Democratic Party candidate for Governor in 2014.

Let's hope that Walker makes a major mistake in this constant efforts at "looking presidential" - a big enough mistake could sway the undecideds, maybe even enough to overcome Walker's incredible billionaire donors club advantage.

fluteplayer

Then donations will need to come in the form of people-to-people conversations about a progressive leader, Kathleen Vinehout. Dairy farmer, professor, hunter, and someone who recognizes the difficult choices that need to be made politically in order to keep abortion safe and legal in the state of Wisconsin, in the face of fanatical opposition.

aspire

Signing anti abortion bill 3rd tri mester. Good thing.
Improving Badger care. Good thing
Vastly improving education. Good thing
Act 10 akin to the emancipation proclamation.Good thing. Wait Great thing.
Tax cuts for all working people in Wi. Good thing
Being straight with Wi. Good thing
Refusing funding gov run single payer, you can't keep your own plan and death panels. Great thing
Passing voter I D. Keeping elections fair for all Wi. Good thing

Ought to be good for 4 more.

196ski
196ski

Nice!

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

196ski. Read it carefully. Then comeback and justify aspire comparing an oppressive, undemocratic law, Act 10 - to Abraham Lincoln's Emmancipation Proclaimation.

If you really believe that both laws are on equal moral footing, I'd like to hear an explaination.

There is one thing in common however. The Emmancipation Proclaimation was intended to deprive states of the Confederacy, and areas of those states still in rebellion against the United States of America, with the financial benefits of slavery, since those benefits were taxed and supported the Confederacy. Likewise, the Unions were made virtually illegal by Scott Walker because the unions lended financial aid to Walkers political opponents, the Democractic Party of Wisconsin. Lincoln though, expanded rights, while Walker demolished rights. Lincoln made slaves free, and Walker made employees lose rights. Lincoln was a president fighting a war against tyrants, and Walker is a tyrant fighting a war to be President.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

Aspire, where have you been the past two and half years? Some kind of Republican Utopian Fantasyland.

Abortion bill - up for debate on its effectiveness. If it truly reduces abortions and/or harm to women from abortions then, yes, good thing.

Improving Badger Care - how? My understanding is that the income limits for Badger Care were RAISED, causing tens of thousands of families to lose Badger Care. Turning down the insurance exchanges as Walker did also reportedly resulted in millions of dollars in health care benefits to Wiscoinites.

Vastly improving education? How? How does removing $800,000,000 a year from public education, and transfering some of that money by voucher or tax refunds for even the wealthiest citizens "Improve education". With teacher moral, reported here, as the lowest in 25 years how did Act 10 "imprive education".

Tax cuts for all working people in Wi? Not if it means a $600 million dollar deficit down the road, as has been reported as well as I recall.

Being straight with Wisconsin? This can only mean in reference to gay marriage. He is not straight with the truth, but as reported by politifact is the #1 liar of all 50 US governors.

Refusing to run single payer - the death panel thing is myth. Look it up. Walkers snub of federal government is said to have cost millions in lost benefits and/or savings.

Passing Voter ID: No, unconsitutional. Remember, walker does not get to be dictator and re-write the consitution. Disenfranchising about 220,000 voters, as reported by a Marquette U. professor, is not enhancing democracy, but advancing dictatorship.

aspire

What's moral thing? Who cares? We just want results for a change. Fact is, throwing money at aducation has never improved education. Now the people get a say in how their money is spent. Refreshing!

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

I missed this, aspire "Act 10 akin to the emancipation proclamation.Good thing."

I really have to wonder where you get your ideas. Ending union rights, an institution of democracy, is equal to the "emancipation proclamation"? Since Abraham Lincoln was the author of that proclamation. Let me fill you in on his ideas about labor rights, including the idea that employees are property.

""Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration." Lincoln's First Annual Message to Congress, December 3, 1861.

How you can compare union rights to slavery is indeed beyond belief. I simply see no connection, nor did Abraham Lincoln.

aspire

He freed the teachers from union oppression. Surely fiction you can grasp that. He freed the people of Wisconsin to choose where their money gets spent in regards to education. Why is this so difficult for low information voters to understand? Or are they just greedy publc workers who have benefited from union oppression.

OscarD
OscarD

The fact is employees always fair better when they have a collective voice.

tomtom33
tomtom33

They fare even better when they are given the opportunity to rise on their own merit.

graefental
graefental

Pick up your administration paycheck, aspire er "libsrlooney." You do a great job playing Eva Braun, und we all enjoy it. Guten nacht.

Comment deleted.
aspire

Flute, then why doesn't the country have it? Just facts here.

agreed. All good

OscarD
OscarD

You forgot :
Arresting 80 year old singers
State average ACT scores drop from second to fourteenth in the nation
Property tax increases
Repeal equal pay act for women
Forced transvaginal ultrasounds
Unaccountable voucher schools at tax payer expense
Mass exodus of college grads to other states
Quality Teachers leaving the profession by the hundreds
Defunding stem cell research
Support of private militia in the iron ore counties
In charge of corrupt campaign and county staff
Wisconsin deserves who they vote for. And so it goes.

Wis_taxpayer
Wis_taxpayer

Hogzilla -
"No kidding. Frantic likes to dominate the conversation and she does her best to squelch any opposition that may come in response to her posts. It's almost like how when a spouse screams infidelity, they are in fact the guilty party. The only difference between the way she portrays Walker and herself is a difference in agendas. Almost fascist if you will."

If there is anyone who wants to squelch the opposition it's Walker and the doctoral Republicans.

Let's see Hog, in one paragraph you've managed to call this poster a "fascist" demean the sex of the poster, and belittle the poster.

This is the typical Republican response today, no argument just attack, attack, attack the messenger.

With your rapier wit you managed to completely embarrass yourself as well as your party... oh wait, there is nothing so low that it could possibly embarrass a Republican.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ Wis_taxpayer, I appreciate your coming to my defense.

But to be fair, Hogzilla did not call me a fascist - the use of that term by Hogzilla was to imply that I'm a hypocrite, if I read Hogzilla correctly. I didn't feel offended in the way Hogzilla used "she", and I've never identified my gender. However, I do think some Republican posters find it easier or more "manly" to attack a female poster rather than male poster, but I don't take Hogzillas "she" that way. The name calling, using "frantic" however, does seem a bit sexist, much like calling a woman "hysterical" - but Norwood44 coined that one, not Hogzilla.

I'll agree with you Wis_Taxpayer that most of the pro-Walker and Republican crowd does seem to engage in a lot of personal attacks. We can all do better, myself included, and I will try to be as civil as possible - without conceding the right to defend myself from blatent personal attacks that only obfuscate the substantial and important issues being debated here.

Norwood44

Well Fiction, you can begin by not assuming people who disagree with your dogmatic union position are Republican and Pro-Walker. A half million voters in Wisconsin voted for Obama and against the recall. Are they fascists? Proto-fascists? The facts contradict your claims at almost every turn.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ Norwood44 FICTION - Straw man argument

Perhaps this explaination of the Straw Man Arugment Fallacy will help you learn to refrain from such nonsense.

Judging from my experience, Straw Man is one of the commonest of fallacies. It is endemic in public debates on politics, ethics, and religion. A straw man argument occurs in the context of a debate―formal or informal―when one side attacks a position―the "straw man"―not held by the other side, then acts as though the other side's position has been refuted.

This fallacy is a type of Red Herring because the arguer is attempting to refute the other side's position, and in the context is required to do so, but instead attacks a position not held by the other side. The arguer argues to a conclusion that denies the "straw man", but misses the target. There may be nothing wrong with the argument presented by the arguer when it is taken out of context, that is, it may be a perfectly good argument against the straw man. It is only because the burden of proof is on the arguer to argue against the opponent's position that a Straw Man fallacy is committed. So, the fallacy is not simply the argument, but the entire situation of the argument occurring in such a context.

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/strawman.html

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

Norwood44 (below) - Expert Ad Hominem fallacy advocate and practiced purveyor of such nonsense on the hour by the hour.

Remember Norwood44, stay away from the name-calling and lies - stay with the truth. Make every effort to attack the problem, not the poster, and you will slowly start to gain credibility.

Hogzilla
Hogzilla

So you are going the same route as Faction then?

Cool, I look forward to our little internet kerfuffles.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

Hogzilla, why not save your "kerfuffles" for the "kerfacists" Republican Leadership now presiding over an absolute dictatorship of our once proud state of Wisconsin? I'm sure our Republican legislators would be happy to accept a personal visit from you. Afterall, even Scott Walker has shown he will accept phone calls - no reason I can see why he won't sit down for a chat with you too, as long as your on the Forbes 10 most wealthy Americans list, like David Koch.

Hogzilla
Hogzilla

How many people do the Koch Brothers employ? How many people does George Soros employ?

How many times have the Koch Brothers been sentenced for manipulating world currencies and forcing them into a tailspin so that they could reap the rewards of the hedge fund benefits? How many times has George Soros been convicted of those felonious crimes? It's 1-0 in that regard, and Soros is guilty.

Do not, under any circumstances believe that the left doesn't play the same game as the right does. At least the right is honest about where they stand.

There is so much blood on your hands we could all swim in glory for the rest of our lives.

Cornelius Gotchberg
Cornelius Gotchberg

@FoF;

You want to talk about wealthy Americans. Might we refine that to wealthy Americans that serve as U. S. Congresspeople? If so, please note the following:

7 of the richest 10, and 11 of the richest 15, members of the United States Congress incredibly happen to have the letter "D" after their names.

Suppose they were to come a calling; think our twice elected Governor would listen? He does, after all, accept telephone calls from corruptive influences. And I myself can't think of any influence more corrruptive than that of a career politician.

And it would appear that the concentration of 1 %ers in Congress, comprised of career politicians as you well know, leans hard aport.

Yet they are career Lefties, which for all intents and purposes renders them above reproach.

You might be forced to make a hard choice; are those Lefties (nice 1 %ers mind you) evil for talking with the object of your consummate disdain.

Or do they get a "Baldwin."

The Gotch

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ Hogzilla (below) - "Blood on your hands"? Please.

First, I'm not a fan or supporter of George Soros, though I know he is far, far down the list in overall wealth compared to the combined wealth of the two Koch brothers. Second to attribute whatever "crimes" your current punching bag supposedly committed to me personally, is really disgusting.

Look up Koch Brothers + Tea Party and you'll get an education. These are not nice guys, and if you deplore George Soros then your criticism of the Koch brothers, sons of a founder of the John Birch Society, should be equally strident.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ Cornelius (below).

FICTION Straw Man Argument

Deny it if you like, but the most influential billionaires in Wisconsin, are not from Wisconsin - they are from out of state. See: http://www.forbes.com/sites/clareoconnor/2012/06/05/gov-scott-walkers-big-money-backers-include-13-out-of-state-billionaires/

They are not so much "in" Wisconsin, as "into" Wisconsin, with a huge "investment" in Scott Walker, for which they expect to be rewarded, including the criminalization of unionizing public employees - soon to include police and firefighters (the people who risk their own lives to keep us safe don't deserve union rights per Walker).

Your use of "lefties" in regard to wealthy Democratic Party members of the US congress and or senate seems to echo the words of now ex congressman Allen West that there are 80 Communists in the US Congress posing as democrats. Really? Sadly for West that claim was rated "pants on fire" by Pulitzer prize winning Politifact (the same organization that ranks Scott Walker as the number one liar of 50 US governors): http://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2012/apr/11/allen-west/allen-west-says-about-80-house-democrats-are-membe/

And while Walker has provided PLENTY of evidence to support his status as a fascist, the 80 communist Democratic members of Congress were never even named.

So if like West you'd like to imply or directly claim that we have "leftists" (slang for communist in Republican circles) - then please provide the evidence. And if the wealth of the Walker billoinaire donors club does not offend, nor does the wealth of our Republican senator, Ron Johnson, please explain why you seem so troubled that some Democratic members of congress are wealthy.

Cornelius Gotchberg
Cornelius Gotchberg

@FoF;

FACT: Ruling from the Lefty World View Cafeteria:

Inconvenient Truth=Straw Man Argument!!

"...please explain why you seem so troubled that some Democratic members of congress are wealthy."

I'm not troubled in the least, merely marvelling at the masterfully craven efforts of Lefty to, on the one hand, decry wealth as evil, Evil, EVIL!!! While on the other be represented at the national level by SO MUCH EVIL.

It's referred to as being successfully fooled, and to paraphrase The Who, "you WILL get fooled again!"

The Gotch

aspire

Interesting the fiction doesn't know there are more liberal 1% ers than conservatives.

geo_

When the little man needed their votes Walker exempted the Police and Firefighters from his union busting actions. Now that he's an incumbent raking the campaign dollars from his kneeling before he ruling oligarchs on his many travels he's more then willing to throw them under the bus now that he no longer needs their votes(he'll buy the election oneway or another). Walker shows how little he understand of the new world order, yes, once the government was the people, but now it's the corporate interests the government represents. We need unions now more than ever.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

Fact, and Walker needs corporate billionaires now more than ever. That's why the top 13 of the 14 biggest donations in 2012 came from out of state billionaires. The 2012 recall election was purchased by Walker, not won by Walker.

Gov. Scott Walker's Big Money Backers Include 13 Out-Of-State Billionaires
Wisconsin’s Governor has out-raised opponent Tom Barrett, the Mayor of Milwaukee, by almost 8 to one: $30.5 million to Barrett’s $3.9 million. Of that huge haul, $1.68 million — or, almost half Barrett’s total — came from 14 members of the Forbes billionaires list, all but one of whom live outside Wisconsin.

Walker’s most generous donor does in fact reside in the state. Billionaire Diane Hendricks of roofing giant ABC Supply donated a total of $510,000 to Walker’s campaign — the biggest check for a governor’s race in Wisconsin history .

Hendricks’ contribution came under scrutiny last month when a documentary filmmaker released a clip of Walker telling her he’d be employing a “divide and conquer” strategy against unions. Walker is, of course, fighting for his seat precisely because of his now infamous bill stripping public sector unions of collective bargaining rights.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/clareoconnor/2012/06/05/gov-scott-walkers-big-money-backers-include-13-out-of-state-billionaires/

gbp

Police and Fire Fighters union, be aware of slimy Walker, just saying. Btw, when Walker dropped out or was kicked out of college, did that qualify him to become a Republican?

smallfry

Question for walker on the national stage. How are collective bargaining rights for workers bad for the budget and tax breaks for the rich are not??? Answer the question walker!!

Hogzilla
Hogzilla

I guess that would have to do with how the "tax breaks" are being administered. If they are just simple give-aways, then there is no likely argument that would pass the muster of public opinion. If the breaks are in the form of incentives to businesses that would hire more workers, expand operations in the state or defer from moving to another state, then they become a lot more palatable. The Democrats do this too, you can look to the same arguments made towards the 600 million dollar gift the Federal government and the Obama administration gave Solyndra. That wasn't a horrible idea on it's face and I would have prefered that things would have went better, but the fact remains that using the tax code is one of the few ways that various governments can persuade the private sector.

As for the need for collective bargaining rights, as a state worker, I have no problem with losing those.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ Hogzilla's "As for the need for collective bargaining rights, as a state worker, I have no problem with losing those.

1. That's because you became a state worker after Walker stripped public servants of their collective bargaining rights. Of course your current pay and benefits, though not what they should be most likely, are in part due to the collective bargaining efforts of those who struggled for them before you arrived at your first day of work.

2. Theres a great deal of evidence that unionization of some-workers raises the level of pay and benefits for all workers. Whether you want collective bargaining for public servants does nothing to minimize the benefit of such rights, even to private sector workers who may not have them.

How unions help all workers
http://www.epi.org/publication/briefingpapers_bp143/

Hogzilla
Hogzilla

Well, prior to landing the job I have with the state, I had zero contributions towards a retirement plan. The deal I have now puts 12% of my income into the state program, of which 6% is a match by the taxpayers. Back when I did have retirement plan, my company paid 3%, so I get more than twice what a non-state employee gets. I also pay $85 per month for a very nice healthcare plan and the rest of you pitch in $1300 per month to pay for the remainder of the policy.

My wage is fair when you consider all of the other things that I get as a state worker.

Coming from the land of the self employed to the land of state workership has been a blessing and I thank all of you for supporting me so that I can help support all of you with services that we offer. That said, we really don't have much to complain about and if we did, we could leave. It's really that simple.

Hogzilla
Hogzilla

Also, my Mom was a state worker for 19 years of her career and she didn't think the changes made under Act 10 were nearly as nefarious as people like Friction make them out to be.

Stuck In The Middle With You

Your next merit pay check is all but guaranteed. You've certainly displayed your mastery of the conservative talking points playbook. Here's a tip if you really want to propel your way to the top with the state nowadays. Learn how to make spreadsheets! The sups and chiefs just go gaga for spreadsheets. It justifies their existance and purpose to sit around and gaze at them for hours. They put them online, they post them in the workplace and they slap them on the easels in the meeting rooms. Remember, spreadsheets.

Our bonuses are $0 this year. It seems in this wonderfully Lame Barack Obama economy our company is losing money yet again this year and is stalled out. No profits mean no income taxes paid and no bonuses. Good for business means good for all, but liberals don't get it.

Reply
Reply

"If the breaks are in the form of incentives to businesses that would hire more workers, expand operations in the state or defer from moving to another state, then they become a lot more palatable."

I fully understand the premise of your logic, but tax breaks and incentives play an almost insignificant role in jobs creation or retention. Consumer demand for any given company's product/service is the primary jobs-creation engine. No executive in his/her right mind would use a break or incentive to hire a bunch of workers to produce goods (or offer services) for which there is no demand.

Likewise, incentives do very little to offset the allure of cheap labor ... here or abroad. Any company could receive all the tax breaks in the world. But if there's a source of absurdly cheap labor somewhere on the planet, you can bet the farm that droves of domestic jobs will be lost to that source, wherever it may be.

Politicians & candidates can stump on promises of returning jobs to our shores & borders ... or creating scores of new ones. And the public keeps falling for those claims hook, line, & sinker. Only when the stranglehold of corporate avarice and greed is broken will decent, sustainable jobs return in sufficient numbers to turn things around.

Hats off to you for taking the initiative to pursue (and land) a State job. But keep in mind what happens when volumes of employees, private & public, get caught in a maelstrom of wage losses. The "best" employees relocate to where a steady income may be, leaving behind those without the resources to just pull up stakes and move. Unfortunately, this also contributes to a mediocre labor pool. In theory this would be a wealth of "anything for a buck" workers. In actuality it's typically a sub-standard workforce incapable of meeting the higher expectations & demands associated with well-paying jobs.

Corporate execs are smart enough to realize it's senseless to expand operations into talent-depleted areas. Unskilled jobs? Why pay even minimum wage here when halfway across the globe there are oodles of job-hungry folks willing to work a week for what a U.S. worker would earn in a couple of hours?

Sorry, Hog, but the concept of corporate tax goodies jump-starting the economy just ain't gonna work.

tomtom33
tomtom33

Cheap labor has been trumped by other factors: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-01-18/america-s-dirty-war-against-manufacturing-part-1-carl-pope.html

Over regulation is the elephant in the room.

smallfry

"haven't formally discussed expanding the state ban on collective bargain"!!! No, you just discussed it!!!

smallfry

" the world didn’t come to an end for other municipal employees"!!!! No, they just half died!!

blue5641

Just testing the waters for Right To Work law. Just the facts middleoftheroad.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ Norwood44's BS rant (below)
"Frantic.Using the female pronoun as default is meant as a sign of openness and respect to women. Too often the default is the male pronoun. So I opt for the female default, as in "God, she..." As for harrassing, well you would know all about that. After all, anyone who disagrees with you, or has voted in the majority in the last two gubernatorial elections (which I didn't) is, according to you, supportive of a fascist regime...right? Now go ahead and play the victim while mischaracterizing people and calling them fascist. It's what you do, whatever your gender might be. Res ipsa loquitor.

First off, my ID is not "Frantic", and I call BS on your pathetically lame lie that you're calling me a female is "Using the female pronoun as default is meant as a sign of openness and respect to women." You show zero respect to anyone for any reason when they are people who oppose your dogmatic, union-hating ideology. Name-calling, such as "Frantic" combined with "openess and respect" are at odds in your statements. Either you DO respect others and refrain from name-calling, or you DON'T respect others and indulge in name-calling. Looks like you've painted yourself into a corner in your effort to paint yourself as the board ettiquete expert.

Regarding harrassment - again, your speciality. The name-calling, personal attacks, calling me "rabid", and more is pure harassment.

Your attempt to portray my comments as portraying anyone but Scott Walker and his legislature partners as fascists is a lie, and a lie I've called you on before, and yet you persist in this lie. I've characterized Walker as a fascist and provided trustworthy, reliable outside-supported evidence for that fact. Not once have I called any of his supporters "fascists". If you would like to feel offended because, contrary to your claims, you wholeheartely SUPPORT Scott Walker and his policies, then that is your choice. But the straw man arguments don't stand up, Norwood44.

Characterizing your opponents as pitiful, self-appointed "victims" is an approach frequently used by the far-right pundits such as Limbaugh, O'Reilly, Hannity and Coulter. In that respect you fit in well with these types.

Your narcisstic need to repeatly return to your personal attacks on me indicates an inability to argue the points of an issue. Those who have nothing convincing to say, would rather convince readers that some should say nothing.

Hogzilla
Hogzilla

ForF~ You sure do like to belly-ache. Read your own posts and see if you can determine why some of us think you are an overly dramatic martyr. Most of us just roll our eyes and try to find conversations that you haven't already dominated.

As Norwood points out, feel free to keep up the work if you want to turn more people away from your way of thinking.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ Hogzilla - I'm sure what you mean by "conversations you haven't already dominated." Vigorous debate is good when Hogzilla talks a lot but bad when Fact or Fiction talks a lot. It sounds like you favor extreme limits on speech, mostly speech that offends you. I'm sure if you ask, Scott Walker will give you a pat on the back for joining his "speech has it's limits" club.

It's not "belly-aching", "whining" or playing "Martyr" to defend oneself from relentless, and totally pointless personal attacks. Posters such as Norwood44 are free to make reasoned arguments all they like. What such posters don't like is having their arguments or points of view challenged. Apparently they also don't like having their Republican Party heros labeled as tyrants, dictators, or fascists - that's off limits too (but its OK when Democratic leaders and posters here are called socialists, communists and leftists - also hippies, unbathed, paleo-prog libs, losers, whiners, babies, and parasites by Republican posters. Because, well, never mind, its just OK.)

The main thing to keep posters such as Norwood44 happy is to agree with them. You know, that sounds a lot like Scott Walker, doesn't it?

Hogzilla
Hogzilla

Fraction~ I don't think it's even remotely comparable to look at how many posts I make versus the number you do. Nearly every comment on this thread has you chiming in.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ Hogzilla below - I'm sorry. Am I required to get a PERMIT in order to post here? Is there a limit on answering the lies of the Republican Posters. I'm sorry if I offended you by not playing fair and speaking the truth to Walkers billionaire-funded lies.

Wis_taxpayer
Wis_taxpayer

You just have to ignore the Nor as pretty much everyone else has, he's only here to cause trouble and stir the pot, just like his idol Walker.

Nor isn't here to make any kind of reasonable argument, he only attacks the messenger and uses smoke and mirrors to deflect the discussion.

Ignore the paid poster and he will go away....(they get paid to stir the pot) don't encourage him.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ Wis_taxpayer. I appreciate your advice, but I don't think it is fair to call Norwood44 a "paid poster". There is no way to confirm that, and Norwood44 has never described his/her postings as being directed by any outside party.

I agree though, that there hasn't been much substance in the "arguments" made by Norwood44 - most of what I see directed at me is not a counter argument, but a continuing series of personal attacks, indicating there isn't much there to support the viewpoints of Norwood44.

Hogzilla
Hogzilla

Why would you ignore Norwood? They are one of the most level headed and logical people on this forum. Other candidates are Ricky Russell, TomTom33, and sometimes Koala. Don't forget about ol' Fart, he's good for a cognizant spiel now and again too. There are others that I am forgetting, and I apologize, but the fact remains that Fraction is a user that needs a little push to bring out the underlying angst.

It's almost a sport at this point...

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

I don't consider the name-calling, such as "Frantic" or "Fraction" to be part of civil debate. You should try to rise above it, Hogzilla.

As for Norwood44 being one of the most level headed and logical people on this forum" maybe you've missed some of Norwood44's conspiracy therories. They are quite interesting, but in no way "level headed" or "logical".

Take the Norwood44 conspiracy theory challenge, Hogzilla - here they are as I presented them to Norwood44 using Norwood44 quotations.

How about these for conspiracy therories, Norwalk44 - all penned by you at this site:

Norwood44: How about your theory that racist white teacher union members are conspiring against black and hispanic children and minorities in general profiting at the expense of minority children, when you stated:k "Somehow predominantly white, educated, pensioned and protected mostly white union members bulging with vacation days are the ones who lay claim to victim status, when it is poor populations of color who are suffering.

Norwood44: How about your theory that I am a paid lobbyist, conspiring to change public opinion when you offered this: "Fact or Fiction. You are neither. You are a lobbyist. So your title should actually be My Facts. My Fiction.

Norwood44: How about your theory that the staff of the supposedly "racist" Capital Times is conspiring to protect "white unionists" at the expense of people of color when you stated:Here's a question for Madison's progressive news site. Do you have any people of color on your editorial board? Any black or hispanic journalists helping you form your positions? Fanlund and Nichols hold forth on all sorts of issues, but they always come down on the side of predominantly white unionists.

Norwood44: How about your theory that public school teachers are pampered and selfish and conspiring to put themselves ahead of the interests of the children they serve, when you stated "We cannot make our decisions based upon keeping teachers pampered, comfortable and free from accountability, innovation or hard work."

hankdog

hog:

tomtom is on your list? I'll agree with the rest of the list, and even include you at times as well. But tomtom, you gotta be kidding.

Hogzilla
Hogzilla

hankdog~ tomtom33 usually has the facts straight. I like his posts.

aspire

Fiction, calm down. You have to admit most of your posts are cut and paste links which are from sources with no credibilty, or ridiculous name calling.

Hogzilla
Hogzilla

The sources are all from links that most of us have already read on Reddit. I haven't seen a single new article or video from Fraction.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ aspire - False I make factual, honest arguments. I also define Scott Walker and his collaborators as tyrants and oligarchs, and provide supportive, reasonable evidence to back it up.

Providing actual links is part of backing up ones argument, and/or giving credit where credit is due. If you can provide evidence that the links are include have "no credibility" by all means do so.

Now if you'd like to provide samples of the ridiculous name calling I'll be glad to respond to each one you can find. One thing you won't find is me calling my fellow posters here "fascists" - that's a lie that Norwood44 repeats over and over and over again. You also won't find me calling fellow posters childhood nicknames, baby names, or taunts - something I see the Republicans here engage in regularly, even toward the authors of original articles.

aspire

REALLY! Fiction your too much. Supportive, reasonable evidence. HA!

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ aspire (below). Then if you disagree support your position with substantial facts, not just slurs and "ha!".

@ Hogzilla (below) If you are really as well read as you imply, you'll expand your collection of information beyond your "Reddit" feed. If you have an argument with facts or opinions then why don't you back it up, rather than all the childish name-calling you mistake for debate?

Hogzilla
Hogzilla

ForF~ Depending on what you have set as your default front page on Reddit, you will quickly see all of the links you post and hundreds of others within an hour or two. Once you've reached the tenth page, you have pretty much seen it all for that day. Rinse and repeat for the rest of your life.

Norwood44

Frantic. I regularly argue the facts. The top spend by WEAC in every election. AFSCME as the top political contributor in the national 2010 election at 85 million dollars. The loss of over 50% of WEAC union members now that membership is not mandated post ACT 10. The fact that only one out of ten Americans even belong to a union. You don't seem to want to discuss those points. You call Walker a fascist, tyrant and dictator when he has been legally elected by a majority of Wisconin voters twice, but you are not inferring posters who support him are fascist? Please. How insipid. Your scream in your posts, then cry victim, all the while acting as some fort of faux intellectual who assumes to be grading others. You are actually becoming boring.

And Annoying.

digger

PUNK...careful where you crash Rock Star!

Maerzie
Maerzie


Scott Walker: "My wife would like it if I went back to the private sector and make some real money."

This loser should just be happy his wife STAYS with him!

ButSiriuslyFolks

If my math is correct, when Tonette graduated from high school, Scott in first grade. Not that it means anything. Take it for what its worth.

Come on in....the water's fine. Except that in the private sector you don't enjoy the job security. In the past 18 years alone the companies I've worked for have endured 8..count them 8 different buy-outs, spin-offs, and or closings. With each of these we had reorgs so only the valuable survive....that means we cut the dead weight. You have to provide value to survivein the private sector.

Maybe you should consider the costs and lost wages when betweeen jobs. I have made more at times, but when the company closes and you are between jobs for 1, 3, 5 months and average it out it's not quite as nice as teh guaruntee that comes with a public sector job, like teaching.

Maerzie
Maerzie

I'm sure Scott Walker has learned all sorts of new, crooked ways to make money "under the table", but what good would that do him WITHOUT a political position?? It is only the political connection that manufactures the GREASE for those palms!

toby

The quickest & most efficient way to create Loyalty, is to create an Enemy. Politicians have done it in every shape , manner & form through the ages. Walker just used the same ole play. In this case it's public workers that he convinced his loyal followers are their enemy.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

Excellent analysis, toby.

tomtom33
tomtom33

The rich, corporations, ALEC, Koch, GOP. Yup.

Maerzie
Maerzie

Do you suppose Scott Walker is suffering from "delusions of grandeur"??

According to Wikipedia:

Grandiose delusions (GD) or delusions of grandeur is principally a subtype of delusional disorder that occurs in patients suffering from a wide range of mental illnesses, including two-thirds of patients in manic state of bipolar disorder, half of those with schizophrenia and a substantial portion of those with substance abuse disorders. GDs are characterized by fantastical beliefs that one is famous, omnipotent, wealthy, or otherwise very powerful. The delusions are generally fantastic and typically have a supernatural, science-fictional, or religious theme. There is a relative lack of research into GD, in comparison to persecutory delusions and auditory hallucinations. About 10% of healthy people experience grandiose thoughts but do not meet full criteria for a diagnosis of GD.

Argyle
Argyle

Nope. Just your run-of-the-mill sociopath.

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

Beware of Republicans bearing "reforms".

Argyle
Argyle

No statements as to FDR’s views on collective bargaining for state or municipal workers were found among his papers as Governor of New York or as President.

"It is now beyond partisan controversy that it is a fundamental individual right of a worker to associate himself with other workers and to bargain collectively with his employer."
--Address at San Diego Exposition, October 2, 1935.

Enough with this "FDR was against it".

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

Scott Walker - Mr. Divide & Conquer

Worse than being caught in a lie, perhaps, is that Walker has been shown, once again, getting buddy-buddy with a billionaire. That supporter in the film just happens to be Forbes 400 rich list member Diane Hendricks of ABC Supply, who later donated $500,000 to Walker’s campaign — the biggest check in the state’s history for a governor’s race.

In the video, Hendricks — a die-hard conservative donor worth $2.8 billion — asks if Walker can turn Wisconsin into a “completely red state”, and “work on these unions”. Walker responds: “Oh yeah,” then adds: “The first step is, we’re going to deal with collective bargaining for all public employee unions, use divide and conquer.”

http://www.forbes.com/sites/clareoconnor/2012/05/11/gov-scott-walker-has-a-billionaire-problem-and-not-the-koch-brothers-for-once/

Mr Mellow

Police and firefighter unions knew this was coming, except for a couple over in Milwaukee that apparently thought contributing to and voting for Walker would keep them safe.
Well, as cops have been known to say, you can't teach stupid.

The Capitol Police, State Troopers, and DNR Wardens have followed his orders so Walker is feeling bold, but what does he gain by announcing this before getting re-elected?

In any case, this should serve as a final wake-up call to anyone who still believes Walker and the GOP legislature aren't going to push through Right To Work legislation.

I deal with realities. You apparently deal with speculation and fear-mongering. Tossing out claims or threats of Right to Work when nothing of the sort has been mentioned is pathetic. The fact that Firefighters and police were not included previously is what the pending lawsuit is about.......not fair to all, so this is not just likely but woudl make it fair for all. Isn't that what Unions are all about?

human

Wingnut definition of "fair for all:" screw all the workers equally, and pass the savings on to the top tax bracket.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ human - some tax refunds have been realized by those in the lower brackets, but the bulk of it, due to the high levels of income they enjoy, went to wealthy, if the articles on madison.com are correct.

And your definition is screw all taxpayers teh same for YOUR benefit.

mpalm1968

Okay, so let me get this right, you don't mind the cuts the federal govt does to Social Security, the military, but you mind this? Does this mean Wisconsin is going to become the Whiner State again, because living here in Oklahoma, thats what people were calling it.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

So true, whenever someone has their collective bargaining rights and benefits stripped then turn into "whiners".

Being from Oklahoma, surely you must be aware of those whiners who had to have their entire neighborhood burned down because of all their uppity whining.

Burning of Greenwood, Oklahoma - The Black Wall Street
Following the shooting of several African-Americans on June 1, 1921, the white mob systematically burned a thirty-five square block area of Greenwood. Schools, churches, businesses, and homes were burned. The estimated property loss reached above $2.3 million. The estimated death tolls of African-Americans were in the hundreds. White vigilantes arrested thousands of African-Americans and held them for no apparent reasons. Approximately 4,300 African-Americans were left homeless, and Greenwood was left in smoke and ashes.
http://www.timbooktu.com/spence/burning.htm

Yes, you folks down in Oklahoma sure know how to handle "whiners" don't you?

sebastian

Again? You should live in Madison. The whining never stops.

bookman21
bookman21

Once again Walker has shown us that he can be trusted absolutely to do the wrong thing for the people of Wisconsin.

Crow Barr
Crow Barr

Maybe tomorrow the capitol police will JOIN the sing-a-long!

human

Capitol Police already lost union representation under Act 10 -- likewise for DNR wardens.

State Patrol were exempted from the law, but Walker apparently didn't think enough of the other state police forces to attempt to buy them off.

ButSiriuslyFolks

A) I don't think anyone is surprised by this. There's a reason Wisconsin Policemen and Firefighters walked with the protesters in 2011. This was all a matter of time.

B) I think the Republicans are surprised that the police and firefighters still have to be cracked down upon. I really think they believed that the courts would deem Act 10 unconstitutional by favoring unions and would have forced the same mandates on the police/firefighters unions. Walker could wash his hands and say it wasn't EVER his intent to go after our beloved policemen and firefighters--it was all those public sector workers who brought a lawsuit who did it to them.

C) So, now, he's at a point where he needs to follow through in time for his candidacy. But I think he isn't going to want this much egg on his face, because the public sector workers will stand with the police and firefighters, and I think a much larger segment of the population will, too. This will make many of the Senators in closer districts a bit nervous. It's one thing to demagogue teachers. It's a another to demagogue the guy who just came to your house when it sounded like someone was breaking in. I can see it failing and quickly being buried by the mainstream media.

D) Also, coming to light will be the "police" vs. the "Palace Guard", and how each are affected. The Capitol Police are under Mike Huebesch's control, with Walker-cronie David Erwin in charge. The State Troopers are under the control of Stephen Fitzgerald, father to Crabbe and Goyle Fitzgerald. And, of course, the DNR agents are under the control of Cathy Steppe. If you're a crony of Walker, you are safe from any impacts of this new version of Act 10 coming down to pipe. Don't expect that to go unnoticed.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ ButSiriuslyFolks - Excellent and honest review of Walker's operational strategies

Norwood44

Frantic Fiction is not empowered to grade posts or determine if something is factually correct. Her opinions carry just the very tiniest, teensy weensy bit of bias. (insert laugh track). Just wanted to throw that out there.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ Norwood44 - I find it odd that you think you have "determined" my gender. I've never mentioned it, yet you keep calling me a "she". Is that because you feel more justified harrassing women rather than men?

And as usual, your comment is Argumentum ad Hominem - attacking the speaker rather than making a point about the issue.

F or F,
attacking the speaker rather than making a point about the issue? !! LOL. that is ALL you do. You just described yourself.

Norwood44

Frantic.Using the female pronoun as default is meant as a sign of openness and respect to women. Too often the default is the male pronoun. So I opt for the female default, as in "God, she..." As for harrassing, well you would know all about that. After all, anyone who disagrees with you, or has voted in the majority in the last two gubernatorial elections (which I didn't) is, according to you, supportive of a fascist regime...right? Now go ahead and play the victim while mischaracterizing people and calling them fascist. It's what you do, whatever your gender might be. Res ipsa loquitor.

Hogzilla
Hogzilla

No kidding. Frantic likes to dominate the conversation and she does her best to squelch any opposition that may come in response to her posts. It's almost like how when a spouse screams infidelity, they are in fact the guilty party. The only difference between the way she portrays Walker and herself is a difference in agendas. Almost fascist if you will.

ButSiriuslyFolks

How about responding to what I originally posted, Norwood, instead of your high-pitched histrionics over Fact or Fiction?

I mean, wouldn't that be less cowardly?

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

Posting my reply at the top of the thread so you don't miss it, Norwood44.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ Hogzilla (below) - You're free to make your comments, and you know that. So don't pretend anyone is interfering with your right to free speech. If it makes you feel and any better, I'm sorry you're feeling sorry for yourself.

Hogzilla
Hogzilla

Fraction~ I am not feeling sorry for myself at all. Things are going well!

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ Hogzilla's Fraction~ I am not feeling sorry for myself at all. Things are going well!

.... now that I'm a state employee and can take advantage of the pay and benefits, though diminished, that union members sacrficed and fought for long before I came aboard

What makes you think private sector workers will support firefighters and police haveing unfair advantages and benefits above what all other public sector workers are getting? You are the ones who brought a lawsuit saying it was unfair? We agree. Do it across the board.

ButSiriuslyFolks

I'm not speaking of private sector unions, I am speaking of the Wisconsin public as a whole. Even most conservatives support higher benefits, including pensions, for civil safety employees who run the risk of getting shot enforcing laws and protecting the public.

I brought no such lawsuit. I knew that Act 10 was written purely for the purpose of trying to make the public sector unions the bad guy, and discouraged legal tactics. It's cowardly of Walker and his fellow Republicans to slink away from a sweeping move like they tried over in Indiana, and now he has to deal with going back on all those comments where he said "the police and firefighters have nothing to worry about".

Which makes him a liar, a coward, and everything we knew him to be all along. And you support him. In essence, you support liars and cowardice, as long as it helps achieve your political goals, right, middleoftheroad?

Hogzilla
Hogzilla

Everybody supports the idea of better benefits. All Walker did was bring things in line with the financial resources of the state. I work for the state and I don't think I am getting screwed in any way. I don't see why I should get better benefits than the people that are paying for mine.

ButSiriuslyFolks

Hog, I have a family member my age (in his 40s) who already has two full pensions from the military, and is working on the third. I pay for that. Tom Petri is about to cash in a lifetime pension of over $100,000 a year for putting in less years in Congress than I will in my job, while already collection $14,000 a year in WISCONSIN pension payments.

http://watchdog.org/98511/packing-on-the-pensions-wi-reps-collect-state-retirement-on-the-federal-dime/

We can't just play the game of "making it equal" when we aren't being "equal" with everyone.

Badger911

middleoftheroad:

Transit workers are also exempt from Act 10 and if they lose their collective bargaining rights the State will lose Federal dollars for public transportation. I'm unsure if any public transit systems will be able to survive without the Federal Support, so perhaps the local taxpayers can pick up the tab for the lost Federal Money. "Be careful for what you wish for". Also many Law Enforcement and Fire Unions have agreed to the increased Pension and Insurance contributions. They also lost the right to bargain the Health Insurance Plan. So even if the City provides for a pay raise they can neutralize it by increasing the cost to the employee for the Health Insurance benefit.

tomtom33
tomtom33

Federal employees cannot collectively bargain. Why should CB have anything to do with Federal funding?

Fartinthewind
Fartinthewind

The impetus for stripping policemen of their collective bargaining rights might just come from the courts. Another impetus might just be money and a drive to reform the WRS. We are already seeing counties move to reclassify jailers. That move has more to do with saving money on the WRS front than it does any real change in duties. If Policemen lost their collective bargaining rights it would be much easier to push through sweeping changes to the WRS.


Mr Mellow

For those who may not know, WRS it is the Wisconsin Retirement System. It is the fully funded, financially healthy retirement system for most Wisconsin government workers. It contains billions of dollars, and Walker wants to get his hands on that money.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

Excactly Fartinthewind and Mr Mellow - With Scott Walker, always follow the money. It's all he really cares about. Here's Scott claiming (now that he is infamous) could be "making some real money" in the private sector. Sure, now that he has made a name for himself by punishing union members, the poor, the elderly, teachers etc... Scott "earns" about $100,000 more than the average Wisconsin worker, including the average public school teacher - but while those kind of people are making "too much" Scott says $100,000 on top of that is not even "real money".

Scott Walker: My wife would like it if I went back to the private sector and make some real money

What’s truly absurd about Gov. Walker’s comment that his wife would like it if he went back to the private sector and made some real money is the fact that Scott Walker has never actually worked in the private sector. Scott Walker has been an elected official for 19 of the 44 years he’s been on planet Earth, and his only work experience as an adult consists of 4 years spent working full-time in marketing and fundraising at the American Red Cross, a nonprofit organization.

What’s also absurd is the fact that Scott Walker apparently thinks his six-figure salary as Governor of the State of Wisconsin isn’t “real money,” because I know a bunch of hardworking public employees who could only wish they made six figures to do their jobs.

Sure, Scott Walker could probably make some money in the private sector now that he’s spent virtually his entire adult life as an elected official, but it’s not as if Scott Walker was making a mint in the private sector before he ran for elected office.

http://bloggingblue.com/2012/03/13/scott-walker-my-wife-would-like-it-if-i-went-back-to-the-private-sector-and-make-some-real-money/

More fear-mongering and straw man arguements by the left.

Fartinthewind
Fartinthewind

If we are offering straw man arguments MotR then please tell us why conservatives would entertain curtailing the collective bargaining rights of policemen and firemen.

because the same public policy that was fair and good for all taxpayers concenring the other public employees is also fair and good concerning the firefighters and police. That's why

sebastian

Let the hysteria and paranoia begin.

Wis_taxpayer
Wis_taxpayer

Gee, what Walker tells WPR is far different than what he tells FOX.... go figure!

To all you Police and Firefighters out there that believed Walker and supported him, because he promised not to include you in his Act 10 law....

GUESS WHO LIED TO YOU!

Here is the story;

http://fox6now.com/2013/07/29/gov-walker-opens-door-to-act-10-expansion/

I guess when you're the number one most untruthful Governor in the United States, this is what you get! At least he's number one in something.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

@ Wis_taxpayer - FACT

morninmist
morninmist

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/07/30/1227792/-Scott-Walkers-Incredibly-Bad-Day-Round-2

Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 03:02 PM PDT
Scott Walkers Incredibly Bad Day, Round 2

by PuddytatFollow

..................Scott Walker is having a bad day today. Not only has he had to try to walk back a bad case of foot in mouth statement yesterday as I've already brought to you, but some of the emails in the John Doe Probe have risen up to bite him in his posterior.

Yes, most of them are sealed under a secrecy order, but some were released by court order which involve a fatality in the O'Donnel Parking Structure which Milwaukee County owns during Scott Walkers reign as Milwaukee County Executive. The family of the victim are suing Milwaukee County over the incident and asked the judge for a court order for those John Doe emails.

If you remember the John Doe Probe at all you're aware that a lot of official Milwaukee County business that wasn't conducted using official Milwaukee County email servers. Instead, a secret router was installed and staffers, including Walker, used private email accounts to avoid the Open Records requirement for archiving communications. Those emails were uncovered during the John Doe Probe.

And the released emails demonstrate that Walkers gubernatorial campaign was actually running the County Executives Office. ......................

Maerzie
Maerzie

How did Walker get out of being charged with anything, after all the crooked things happening right under his nose? The "boss" is usually the one pulling the strings, isn't he? Course, maybe his own puppet strings got tangled up in the mess.

dogbert

Scott will cover his tracks by passing a bill barring lawsuits against republican wrongdoing. LOL!

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