One of the more frowned-upon techniques of economic development is so-called “job poaching,” where states or local governments try to lure companies to jump across municipal or state borders with various incentives or giveaways.

While it might look good for a politician to say he “created 100 new jobs” by getting a company to relocate, the broader net impact is generally minimal. In cases where subsidies are involved, these efforts can actually prove an economic loser for taxpayers.

Those problems are laid out in a new national report called “Job Creation Shell Game” from the Washington-based think tank Good Jobs First. The report says state and local governments waste billions of dollars each year on economic development subsidies given to companies for moving existing jobs from one location to another rather than focusing on the creation of actual new positions or companies.

Some of the worst examples cited in the report are an ongoing Missouri vs. Kansas border battle and practices in Georgia, which the report nicknames the “Poach State.” Wisconsin is mentioned over its efforts to keep Mercury Marine from moving away.

“The result is a vast waste of taxpayer funds, paying for the geographic reshuffling of existing jobs rather than new business activity,” says Greg LeRoy, executive director of Good Jobs First. “By pretending that these jobs are new, public officials and the recipient companies engage in what amounts to interstate job fraud.”

The report apparently has not yet reached the desk of Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker or state Rep. Erik Severson, R-Osceola, who are busy these day encouraging Minnesota businesses to relocate across the border to the Badger State.

Walker has spent the past two years trying without much success to get businesses to move from Illinois. In a recent Twitter post he added Minnesota to the job shuffle talk.

“In '11, IL raised taxes on income by 66% & businesses by 46%. Now MN Gov is proposing a $2 bil tax increase. WI is Open for Business” Walker tweeted.

Also trying to get in on the action, Severson issued a press release this week urging Minnesota companies to cross the border to avoid a new business-to-business sales tax Gov. Mark Dayton is proposing. Minnesota is facing a $1.1 billion budget deficit this year and the Democratic governor is looking for new revenue sources to close the gap.

“I believe it is important to outline the options for businesses in Minnesota by letting them know that here in Wisconsin we value job creators,” says Severson. “We are moving Wisconsin forward by promoting job growth through lower taxes on families and small businesses.”

In a political smackdown, however, Dayton took a shot at Walker during his State of the State address on Wednesday, noting that Minnesota was 12th in the nation in job creation last year while Wisconsin “which, by the way, is ‘open for business,’ helped bring up the rear at 42nd.”

Dayton kept up the drubbing: "And, help spread the word across the St. Croix, their unemployment rate last month was 20 percent higher than ours, while our per-capita income was 12 percent higher than theirs."

Also left out of the discussion is that Minnesota has seen its wages and incomes increase over the past decades while Wisconsin has been going in the opposite direction.

Louis Johnston, a blogger for MinnPost, has enjoyed a field day of late with Walker as his target, highlighting Minnesota's lower unemployment rate (5.5 percent compared to Wisconsin's 6.6 percent), better job growth and higher per-capita income.

“Wisconsin’s per-capita income relative to the national average has, in the best light, stagnated since the 1950s. Minnesota passed Wisconsin in the late 1960s and the gap has grown every year since then,” he writes.

Considering that payroll is usually a much larger business expense than taxes, perhaps Johnston could offer Severson and Walker a new line to pitch: Wisconsin “the low-wage alternative.”

You might also like

(180) comments

Looking at where these states rank in jobs, taxes, deficits, etc in the first yr or 2 of their terms doesn't mean jack. Let's look at teh direction they are going and where they are 2-4 years later after the things they do this year take affect. In this respect Walker is laying a smackdown on Minn as they move to make massive tax increases.

Midnightpromises
Midnightpromises

"No Gov or Pres canever create jobs, nor should they"

Now grab some coffee and lets talk pipelines and mines.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

Fact

Hogzilla
Hogzilla

Fact or Fiction is John Nichols or one of the other shills from the Cap Times. Click on his username, it's just a single quote from Christopher Hitchins. Everyone else has a post history. This is nefarious. You are going down Johnny Boy.

It takes a long time for any business to get started, expand, and moreso to move. I've been involved with several companies that have opened new plants or moved operations and in every case the planning and execution took Years. You can't look at last year's results to see if policies enacted last year are working yet. This is why so often people point to a leader's terms and give credit or blame to the wrong parties. Good or bad things that occurred in Walker's first 6-12 month were the result of Doyle's Actions. For some issues it coulnd affect for several years or the entire term. If the 1 or both houses are not onthe side of the sitting Gov and he can't pass legislation then he is at the mercy of the laws and policies that were passed on to him. In this case Walker was Forced to spend a good deal of time and effort fighting off a Recall attempt, so he had to stand for election twice in 2 years. We may begin to gain jobs in Walker's last 2 years. Wisconsin, Minn, and Ill also do Not exist in a bubbles and are at the mercy and influence of regional, national, and Global economic issues. Unless we have some sort of unique product you cna't expect our economy to just skyrocket while those around us are struggling. This entire article and debate are just more worthless distraction from Nichols and the CT. Trying every angle to ship away and stir up disent against Walker. Pathetic John. Instead of constantly complaining and criticizing why don't you ever come up with some solutions and good ideas? What should we be doing that would be sooo much better John?

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

Fiction: A promise (250,000 new jobs) is a promise.

Comment deleted.
Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

Fact: Thank you for monitoring the Capital Times message boards

Comment deleted.
Norwood44
Norwood44

PJ. Thanks for the information. Respectfully, the CT could take a lead on this by asking Mr. Fanlund and Mr. Nichols to stop fanning the flames as well. If we want to create a more respectful tone, it can start with the pieces to which the readers are responding. These have been historically strange times. A litte less rabid rhetoric from everyone, this poster included, would be a good thing.

Comment deleted.
AllAmerican11B
AllAmerican11B

By the way, I have absolutely no problem with better monitoring of the comments on these comment boards; I think this is a good idea. There have been way too many off-topic blatant personal attacks and very personal insults around here that should have been deleted and some "Report Abuse" button submissions appear to have been ignored especially when they are reporting particular bloggers.

Who defines the limitations to the wide open statement "off topic"?

When a blogger brings up other points that the article author or other bloggers have ignored but is "related" to the topic, is that considered off-topic? If so, there will be bloggers that will justifiably start talking about partisan censorship. This is a slippery road, but if you all can do it properly and fairly, I say go for it.

Comment deleted.
AllAmerican11B
AllAmerican11B

Is this just The Capital Times that is doing this to off-topic comments that attack others? I thought this was Madison.com; do you have a different set of admins for the Wisconsin State Journal, etc?

Comment deleted.
Fartinthewind
Fartinthewind

Good luck and godspeed.

I hope you actually carry through with this. I would love to see the dissembling stop. Keeping people on topic will help with this.

Comment deleted.
Cornelius Gotchberg
Cornelius Gotchberg

@ P J Slinger;

I've made inhuman efforts and relied on keenly shrewd judgement to avoid using any of the brilliantly creative bastardizations of the terms *liberal* & *progressive*, as they appear to serve no other purpose than to elevate the user and denigrate the recipient.

Will referring to the Left by the seemingly innocuous, yet highly accurate, sobriquet of *Lefty* or *Lefties* to identify an ideologue or ideology (respectively) fall 'in' or 'out' of the new bounds of acceptable commenting?

While self-identifying as a conservative independent may come as a bit of a shock to most, I myself do not find being referred to as a *Righty* or conservatives generally being dubbed *Righties* at all insulting or demeaning.

Please advise.

The Gotch

Comment deleted.
ran
ran

I applaud that approach. An intelligent discussion does not need name-calling.

truegangsteroflove
truegangsteroflove

Yeah, but Scott Walker is going to be the next president. President of what, one might ask. According to "Republicans," president of the United States. More likely it will be president of cell block 3 at Waupun. Since he's a politician he'll probably go to a country club prison in another state, Colorado, most likely, since that's where he was born, and he'd be among his own.

It's a bitter pill to swallow for Walker's supporters. His scheme was never going to produce any positive results, but people were easily fooled. It's what makes politicians run - the gullibility of the masses. Walker had nothing, but he's a good demagogue. Maybe he can find the perfect lie to get out of trouble next election. Some people will go to their graves before they ever admit they got suckered. They will be easily suckered again.

For Walker I have a theme song: youtube.com/watch?v=i2RGu1v5388 . He can sing this while he's making license plates.

snoebird
snoebird

The story says Osceola is looking to lure a Minnesota firm over the St. Croix River. It doesn't mention why. Osceola did lure Polaris from Minnesota about a decade ago, but Polaris recently moved most of its operation to Mexico to cut its payroll. And for those who criticize Minnesota's budget deficit, here's the deal: Two terms of Tim Pawlenty and Republican leadership left the state in a deep hole and its education fund raided. Gov. Dayton now has a Democratic majority in both houses, so he's trying to restore the public coffers while promising a $500 property tax refund to every homeowner because the "no-new-taxes" GOP policy caused continuous property tax increases during Pawlenty's terms.

tomtom33
tomtom33

Payroll costs are not much of a driver in anything. The cost of regulation is.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-01-18/america-s-dirty-war-against-manufacturing-part-1-carl-pope.html

AdiosScott
AdiosScott

Then let's quit laser focussing on driving wages to the bottom and get on with prioritizing the real problems.

AllAmerican11B
AllAmerican11B

AdiosScott,
"Then let's quit laser focussing on driving wages to the bottom and get on with prioritizing the real problems."

We bow to the all knowing Carnac the Magnificent, do tell us oh Carnac, what are the real problems?

tomtom33
tomtom33

There is a difference between market wages and driving wages to the bottom. And you are intelligent enough to know the difference.

AllAmerican11B
AllAmerican11B

tomtom33,
"There is a difference between market wages and driving wages to the bottom. And you are intelligent enough to know the difference."

Resorting to assumptions...

Liberalsmakesense
Liberalsmakesense

A majority of Wisconsin businesses directly contradicted you totom33 and said the cost of regulation was NOT their biggest issue. You need to keep up with current happenings and not keep relying on how walker won the re-election.

tomtom33
tomtom33

Your source?

Fartinthewind
Fartinthewind

As I posted above tomtom the governor's own survey of business interests failed to identify regulations as a primary obstacle to gob growth.

Liberalsmakesense
Liberalsmakesense

Here is the source, tomto33. Enjoy! http://host.madison.com/news/local/writers/jessica_vanegeren/small-business-owners-don-t-list-complying-with-state-regs/article_9405a99c-6199-11e2-9a8f-001a4bcf887a.html

Fartinthewind
Fartinthewind

Gov Walker put out a survey through a number of business dominated associations. Government regulation was way down on the list of obstacles to growth.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

Undetermined: Source please?

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

Fact: Bloomberg is a reputable news source

Fartinthewind
Fartinthewind

For F:

Bloomberg might be a reputable news source. The article might be a good article. That does not mean the article proves tomtom's point (it doesn't).

You got snookered F or F.

Fartinthewind
Fartinthewind

Once again you link to part 1 of a three part series. And once again the article doesn't really support your position.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

Fact: tomtom33 does provide a legitimate support for his argument that the cost of regulation "drives" hiring decisions. Agree or not, the argument is sound and supported with factual evidence.

pete
pete

this is really fresh coming from a governor whose family moved their fortune out of the state to avoid paying MN taxes.....

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

Undetermined: Source please?

Andy Olsen
Andy Olsen

Walker can't say "I built that" but maybe he can claim "I poached that."

Conservative economic dogma is a historic failure.

- Trickle down tax cuts have been tried several times and have failed. Bush tax cuts did not create jobs.
- Tax cuts did not generate more revenue than they lost.
- When Clinton nudged taxes on the wealthy up slightly, cons freaked out and said it would crash the economy. The economy took off* and the deficit shrank, leaving a surplus that Bush pis*ed away. Another conservative economic dogma fail.

So, we can add poaching to the list. Bad for jobs, bad for taxes.

Let's "build that" together and resume the public investments that create jobs and generate even more economic activity. Let's stop the looting and anti-government extremism.

* - Also due to that great government success story: The Internet.

196ski
196ski

Andy, the Bush tax cuts did create jobs. "From June 2003 to December 2007, the economy added 8.1 million jobs, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. The unemployment rate fell to 5% from 6.3%. Real GDP growth averaged close to 3% in the four-plus years after that, and the budget deficit fell steadily from 2004 to 2007."
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2012/07/a-tale-of-two-charts-bush-tax-cuts-created-jobs-unlike-obamas-spend-your-way-to-hell-plan/

The Bush Tax Cuts were primarily middle class tax cuts, not "trickle down cuts".

Oops, the Bush tax cuts did generate more tax revenue than the cuts themselves.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/mikepatton/2012/10/15/do-tax-cuts-increase-government-revenue/

Define "public investments".

Lastly, congratulations to Minnesota for embracing iron ore mining on the range.
"Governor Mark Dayton’s “Working for Minnesota Jobs” tour continued today on the Iron Range, focused on value-added mining opportunities that will get Minnesotans back to work."
http://mn.gov/governor/blog/the-office-of-the-governor-blog-entry-detail.jsp?id=102-47741

snoebird
snoebird

Congratulating Gov. Dayton for "embracing iron ore mining on the range" is a hoot to those of us who live in Minnesota. The Iron Range has existed for a century. It's a Democratic stronghold, always has been. The late Sen. Paul Wellstone and current Sen. Amy Klobuchar have fought for price controls against China to keep Iron Range firms competitive.

Hogzilla
Hogzilla

This is true, I lived in the Iron Range also. The point Ski was making is that they are continuing to embrace the mining industry while Wisconsin is going out of its way to push it away. The people that live in the Range do tend to lean Democrat, but that mostly is tied to the strong influence of private sector unions, which have had a positive impact for the most part in the area.

Price controls can be effective, but they have to be monitored closely because the cost of raw materials can eventually push manufacturing off-shore if they get too high. There is a delicate balance between the unions, the mining companies, the manufacturers and the role of government. Finding that balance is key.

196ski
196ski

So is the fact that it is a "Democratic stronghold" a bad thing? Who cares? That's their business. Minnesota has embraced the utilization of a natural resource for the betterment of the residents of the Sate. If that is a "hoot" I guess I don't get it. My brother in law, a diehard democrat and union member has worked his entire life on the range and provided nicely for his family. I don't agree with his politics but that isn't relevant is it?

The price controls are on steel, not iron ore. China imports ore from primarily Australia. With ultra cheap labor, no pollution controls and government subsidies they can dump steel in the US with little regard to profit.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

Undetermined: Sources?

calme
calme

There is are so many points in this response that are factually incorrect I don't know where to start...

You do present accurate data regarding job growth, GDP, and the budget deficit from 2004 from 2007, but it is important to look at these figures in historical context. We now know this activity was based on economic growth built on a house of cards that was centered on over-inflated real estate and investment valuation. Sure the getting was good from 2004 to 2007, but the run up in economic activity was a mirage that culminated in the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression. I’m sorry, bu real growth doesn't cause economic collapse.

The data you present conveniently end at the exact point home prices started declining, investment value started declining, and economic activity started declining. Not to mention it also fails to mention that any “growth” during the chosen period was eradicated in a matter of months as job losses, economic contraction, and deficits reached historic levels. In fact, the results of the economic crisis had completely wiped out any hope for job gains, positive GDP growth, and deficit reduction before George W. Bush left office. The whole of his presidency shows his two terms were a statistical wash in GDP growth and job growth. Additionally, the deficit exploded before he left office (which, by the way, has declined each of the last three years and is expected to continue to decline under current policies… despite what the right-wing tells the public http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/attachments/OutlookSlides.pdf) Simply picking a cross-section of positive jobs, GDP, and deficit data while ignoring the deficiencies of this “growth” is ignorant at best and a blatant attempt at revisionism at worst.

Now, on to the comment regarding the Bush tax cuts primarily focusing on the middle class… This couldn’t be further from the truth. While many “conservative” individuals like to say the Bush tax cuts focused on the middle class, the data shows the tax cuts benefited the very wealthy much, much more than anyone in the middle class. It is true to say the bulk of the total dollar figure in tax savings went to middle class individuals, but this has everything to do with arithmetic and nothing to do with equal distribution of tax savings. The middle class received the bulk of the total dollar amount in tax savings from the Bush tax cuts for a simple reason; there are many more middle class individuals in the United States than there are wealthy people.

When analyzing the Bush tax cuts received by income class on a percentage basis the true impact of the Bush tax cuts becomes much clearer. The Bush tax cuts provided a tax cut of roughly 1.5% to 3.0% to middle class families. For individuals making more than $500,000 per year the tax cuts ranged from roughly 3.5% to 10.5% for incomes up to $1,000,000 per year. In other words, the tax cut you received as a percentage of your income increased as your income increased, which is anything but “focusing on the middle class.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/11/AR2010081105864.html

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/12/the_bush_tax_cuts_in_one_chart.html

Now, for the final point about the Bush tax cuts increasing revenue, this is a classic case of “correlation does not equal taxation.” Economic activity as a result of hollow investment and asset appreciation increased tax revenues from 2003 to 2007, not tax cuts. Like the aforementioned economic data, tax revenues declined sharply at the onset of the economic crisis. This was not because of changes in the tax code, but a result of economic contraction. If the increase in revenues was in fact a direct result of the tax cuts government revenues wouldn’t have plummeted so drastically during the recession, which, as your Forbes resource shows, began at, you guessed it, the onset of the crisis in 2007. Until 2013 the Bush tax rates have been in effect. Despite that fact, we have not seen consistent growth in government revenues. The facts just don’t support the argument that changes in revenues are a direct result of changes in tax policy.

Just take a look at your resource again to see that the argument doesn’t hold water. Bill Clinton raised taxes substantially during his presidency. Still, as the graph in your chart shows, government revenues increased consistently during the entire length of his two terms. Again, government revenue increases have everything to do with underlying economic activity and very little to do with tax policy.

Those are the facts. That is our reality. Attempting to paint the G.W. Bush era as a rosy picture in hindsight requires exclusion of some very critical factors in his presidency. Taking a look at the whole picture reveals the reality of Bush’s policies and the “success” of his approach to economics and taxation.

tomtom33
tomtom33

"Sure the getting was good from 2004 to 2007, but the run up in economic activity was a mirage that culminated in the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression. I’m sorry, bu real growth doesn't cause economic collapse."

Economic activity and growth causes collapse? Economies boom and economies bust. Things have been going like this for better than 150 years. Government meddling in the real estate market, meddling by both parties, caused the bubble. Less government equals less bubble.

calme
calme

No, Tomtom, economies have not routinely experienced rapid short-term growth followed by unprecedented crashes. That is why the 2008 crisis was historic. You clearly don't know what you are talking about.

Reread the comment you quoted. I said, "REAL economic growth doesn't cause collapse." I agree the economy is cyclical and that this is natural; however, what we experienced in 2008 was not a natural economic cycle. It was a crash driven by unethical behavior in the markets and baselessly inflated assets and investments. Anyone with a basic understanding of the crisis knows that was the case.

Now, as for your comment regarding "government meddling," I know you want to believe this is the case, but you are completely wrong. Every credible report on the crisis spells out clearly the crisis was made possible by a lack of oversight in the mortgage market, the derivatives market, and the investment ratings industry. As a result, risk management at investment firms and financial institutions flew out the window in favor of short-term gains. You need to do a little more reading on the topic. Here is a good place to start.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/GPO-FCIC/pdf/GPO-FCIC.pdf

Hogzilla
Hogzilla

calme~ Do you think that the government and the Fed played any role in the 2008 crash? It seems to me that they were complicit in the poor lending oversight as well, as they were actively promoting the concept that people should buy homes that they really couldn't afford. I bought a house at the peak of the market in 2005 and I was offered ridiculous terms and amounts of money that had no basis in reality when compared to my income. I was smart enough to run my own numbers and avoided getting stuck with something I couldn't afford, but many people either didn't bother, or didn't care.

I think the banks knew this and because the government and the Fed were backing these loans along with the HELOC's, there was very little risk for the banks. This has been happening since at least the early 30's through FHA loans and the FDIC and of course Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were the largest conduits as loan re-packagers and they were also sponsored by the Federal Government.

In the end, the government did bail the banks out and they will do the same thing in the future. There won't be any changes to the system, because this is the system they want. The Fed has done a great job of selling the idea of a fiat currency and they have the Federal government convinced that this is the best policy. In the end, the American taxpayers get stuck with the bill, which is exactly the way the system is set up.

Hogzilla
Hogzilla

calme~ You should check out the book "The Creature from Jekyll Island". It's a fascinating look at the Federal Reserve and banking industry. It might open your eyes a little to some of the things that have happened over the course of the last 100 years.

calme
calme

Hogzilla, you just provided support for my position. A lack of oversight in the system permitted financial institutions and investors to play the system for short-term personal gain. A higher degree of regulatory oversight would have caused action at the federal level and at the Federal Reserve Bank, but the oversight wasn't there. In turn, crisis was inevitable.

You're correct in stating the Bush administration, the Federal Reserve, and associated agencies did nothing about the problem... despite knowledge of the situation and warnings of impending crisis. In fact, the administration was active in promoting activity that contributed to the problem directly ("ownership society", anyone?) with little focus on the implications of questionable lending practices. Ignorance, political benefits, and corporate-political ties made the behavior leading the crisis possible, but it could have been avoided with more legal structure and regulatory oversight in the mortgage markets, derivatives markets, and ratings agencies.

Today, we have a law, the Dodd-Frank Act, that addresses many of these issues. It is the strongest effort to prevent another crisis of this magnitude since Glass-Steagal and The New Deal. It's just unfortunate we have a political party in Congress hell bent on doing everything possible to prevent the law from being implemented...

Hogzilla
Hogzilla

calme~ As much as it would be nice to place the meltdown of 2008 at the feet of the Republicans, it just isn't the case. This has been a systematic force for almost 100 years. If you look into the cases of Lockeheed in the early 70's, the S&L crisis of the early and mid 80's and the bailouts for GM, Chrysler and the big banks, it's pretty clear that the Federal Government is complicit in all of it. Trusting a single party over another one is just plain foolish. This is a conspiracy to defraud the American people on a grand scale. If we use the definition of conspiracy that is universally accepted

con·spir·a·cy (kn-spîr-s)
n. pl. con·spir·a·cies
1. An agreement to perform together an illegal, wrongful, or subversive act.
2. A group of conspirators.
3. Law An agreement between two or more persons to commit a crime or accomplish a legal purpose through illegal action.
4. A joining or acting together, as if by sinister design:

There is little doubt that what has happened is anything less than planned.

I think you and I are arguing about the wrong things. I think both sides of the political spectrum have harmed us and I think in the end they are actually the same thing, There is really no difference between the parties except for base line considerations on social issues. People talk about voting for the lesser of two evils, but really, they are voting for the exact same thing. We are being had. There is no other way to frame this conversation other than to admit that we are being played out and broken down as cogs in a nefarious death match that will ultimately result in a civil war.

tomtom33
tomtom33

calme, have you ever heard of the mortgage interest deduction? That is but one example of government meddling. Remember Barney Frank stating that Fannie and Freddie were on solid grounds when he led the successful attempt to thwart the Bush administration's efforts at tightening up? Speaking of Fannie and Freddie, do you see a thread here?

calme
calme

Correction: *There are so many points...

calme
calme

Correction 2: "Correlation does not equal causation." Sorry, taxes on the brain...

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

There was a series of articles by investigative reporters Steele and Barlette in Time magazine back around (IIRC) 1998 that followed up on these corporate fishing lures. S&B discovered that the tax breaks and infrastructure construction and outright payments almost always cost the governments involved tons o'bux without producing anywhere near the benefits claimed.

Furthermore, a substantial fraction of the companies willing to bolt to your community because you offered them a good deal have no compunction whatsoever about bolting to a different community a couple of years later if they can get an even better deal. Loyalty? They were willing to take your bribe in the first place, and you're expecting loyalty?

S&B concluded that your best bet, if a company is trying to whipsaw you into escalating your incentives by telling you how much better an offer they're getting from somewhere else, is to politely wave bye-bye and count your lucky stars.

Fartinthewind
Fartinthewind

You beat me to it richard.

This whole thing reminds me of the friend who comes up to you with a smile on their face. You ask what's got them so happy and they tell you they are in a new relationship. They tell you who the new significant other is and your first response is shock. "Aren't they married to so and so," you ask?

"Yeah but it wasn't working out," comes the reply.

Then a little while later there's your friend with their head on your shoulder crying that the love of their life has left for greener pastures.

freddiebell
freddiebell

I was thinking the same thing while reading all of the comments from oldest to newest. Thanks, Richard, for identifying the elephant in the room. Loyalty, like trust, is earned, not given. Once that bond is broken, it can never put back into place seamlessly.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

Fact

Nav
Nav

The number of posts from all over Wisconsin critical of Governor Walker is VERY telling. I hope voters all over the state are sensing it as well. Remember, the Governor is likely to run again for Governor in 2014, and you will need to keep certain things in mind.

tomtom33
tomtom33

The number of votes from all over the State elected Walker for the second time with a greater margin than the first time.

Nav
Nav

Yes, tomtom33 that true. Dick Lugar also won his last election by 40% before he was unseated by some one. Have you ever heard of the phrase "past performance does not guarantee future results"? I am talking about the present and my opinion on what the future holds for the Governor. If you want to disagree, that's fine but please quit living in the past.

tomtom33
tomtom33

What anyone thinks today means little. We don't vote again for nearly 2 years. I certainly can't predict the future. I rather doubt that you can either. You don't get to keep holding elections when you don't like the outcome(except for one recall per term).

Today the GOP has all the horses in WI. We'll see how they manage just like we'll see how the Democrats manage at the national level.

AdiosScott
AdiosScott

It is a well known fact that if you raise a kid and constantly tell him he is worthless, chances are he will turn out that way. Sort of like Stockholm Syndrome, where your captor, the one holding you hostage, becomes your sole source of information and inevitably, your sole source of trust.

And not unlike the GOP policies of today. Tell the working class they are not worthy of a living wage. Tell them we need to support the Venture Capitalist Vultures so they will throw a few crumbs for the workforce to just get by on. Tell their supporters that everyone else who fights to improve their living conditions, is their enemy. And spend lots of money to constantly bombard their minds with this propaganda, until they believe it.

You conservative followers begging for any job, whether it is a promised mining job, a low paying non-union job, or the job your neighbor just lost for standing up for better wages. You have been sucked in by the conservative agenda. Those of us you fight this day to day battle with, have way more faith in you than you do yourself. We know you are worth more than you give yourself credit for. We know that if the conservatives holding the wealth has their way, they will mold you into the worthless kid or helpless Stockholm victim. As much as we fight with you, we do not want that for you. We want you to prosper, as well as we want to. And more importantly, we all want for or kids to have the ability to do so.

Think about it. We are the ones trying to help you. We have nothing to gain in a selfish individual manner. Our only gain is in the form of a population as a whole. We win when you win. We can only fail if we continue to fall for the conservative false evaluation of our worth, and follow their false promises.

Again, at least think about it, and consider helping us to look out for every working citizen in the state. Promoting the "politician buyers" who are already doing quite well helping themselves, does nothing to help the general population maintain a strong state.

Norby
Norby

Adiosscott,
While I don't agree with everything you have said, it is a very interesting and thoughtful post. While you will no doubt mostly receive insult replies, I hope a few people give it the thought it deserves,

Retoother
Retoother

I pay above the union scale as do a lot of other companies in my field so I am not sure your post holds any water.

AdiosScott
AdiosScott

Retoother

I'm not painting All employers with a broad brush. So don't put yourself under the coat I put on the majority of "capitalist vultures". I've worked for employers that pay above scale, so I'd never throw them in the same lot as the ones my post pertains to.

If you truly are one of the good employers, I have much respect for you, and would hope that you are one that considers ALL workers rights for fair living conditions. As an employer, don't you see the advantage those employers who pay unfair wages and conditions, have over you if you have to compete with them. Workers compensation should have no more influence on which employer wins a contract bid, than does the quality of materials used to produce the product you're selling.

All employers can use equivalent labor and materials to produce a product. The good employer will manage his labor effectively and will use his experience to complete the process most efficiently and gain the most profit. Not only is this fair for the American workers, it weeds the unscrupulous employers who make their profit on the backs of their employees, out. And in turn, this makes the better employers sharpen their pencils and their wits, and invest in research and development, to not only win contracts and gain wealth, but to also keep American products and their reliability at the top of the worlds market.

Ever_the_realist
Ever_the_realist

I commend you for paying well. My question is simple. Does this mean you pay above the union scale total package? While it seems trivial, it could result in $1,000's of dollars a year.

For example in my trade union scale is (numbers rounded for ease and no more than $0.06/hr) $33.00/hr on the check, $9.25/hr retirement, $8.60/hr insurance (monthly premium is $1020/month the rest goes to a account for when laid off to keep insurance going). Therefore total package is $50.85/hr.

Company X claims to pay their employees $2.00/hr ABOVE union scale and pays their employee $35.00/hr. Then they match 4% for 401k plan -$1.40/hr for 401k (assuming the employee puts in no more than employer matches), and pays 20% of family health care premium of $1,500/month or $300. This leaves the employee paying $1,200 a month or $7.5/hr for a 160 hour month. Thus the actual pay for the employee is $35 - $8.90 = $26.10. Or $24.75/hr UNDER union scale.

Under this scenario the employer claiming to pay OVER union scale is actually paying $49,500/year LESS (based on 50 weeks at 40 hours a week and two weeks vacation) by paying $2.00/hr MORE.

So you see it is imperative to have all the facts when one is considering whether or not a statement holds water.

tomtom33
tomtom33

I don't get into poor me very much. Anyone deserves whatever value they deliver. The marketplace determines wages and prices.

Nav
Nav

This idea that the "market place" creates some sort of panacea for everyone every time is one of the most ridiculous notions out there. Even the market place is affected by laws. If there are no unions, why would you think businesses would want to pay good wages to their employees? That makes NO sense.

tomtom33
tomtom33

Businesses want to treat their employees well because their employees generate profits. It is good business to treat your people well. I ran my own business for 20 years. I like to think I treated my employees well. Nearly 15 years after I sold the business, my former employees tell me that I treated them well. And we never had a union.

That makes a lot of sense.

If the unions were so good, why has their membership been declining since the 50s? Today unions make no sense. And they will meander off into the sunset, an anachronism.

196ski
196ski

You obviously don't own a business.

Not all workers are created equal, the range is from unacceptable to exceptional. To keep the exceptional you have to PAY them and keep them safe, content, challenged and involved in their jobs. This is a payroll weekend for me, the checks for my employees are the least painful checks I write.

AdiosScott
AdiosScott

ski

I can't speak to who owns or doesn't own a business here , but the rest of your post shows we agree 100% on what you state.

I might add that I feel we both would agree that you, as an employer have the right to discharge anyone that is unacceptable. Too many blame the unions by stating that the unions protect the unacceptable and forces the employer to continually be stuck with unproductive workers. This may be the case if the evidence stopped right there, but if you look at it a little deeper, you can find other avenues. And it does not all lie on the unions back.

This is an area where a good manager should be focused and working with the unions to eliminate the problem, instead of painting the entire idea of unions with the same brush that he paints the unacceptable one. The prior can and has been done. I've seen good managers take the lead on similar issues and when presented to the unions, have produced results that benefited both parties.

And as far as the payroll being the least painful checks you write, I have heard that all my life and from most business owners I've discussed this with. So why do you think it is such topic for battle on so many occasions? I believe we should all emphasize this fact to all so at least we can all quit fighting or claiming that greedy wage requests are a problem.

Unproductive workers can be weeded out to the satisfaction of both parties, through the use of good faith bargaining between good managers and good worker representatives. And then we all could focus on the real problems that remain.

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

Fiction

There were several comments in this thread that were off-topic (regarding Obama). They have been removed. Please stay on topic when posting your comments and please be civil and discuss the topic, not each other. Thank you.

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

Great minds discuss ideas.
Average minds discuss events.
Small minds discuss people.
 
So how about that Donald Driver, eh?

Hogzilla
Hogzilla

In this case, some discussion of what is going on at the Federal level is warranted because the Wisconsin economy functions within the American economy, which functions within the global economy. There are decisions being made at the Federal level that impact things on the state level, therefore it's difficult to have a complete discussion without accounting for things that are happening in Washington.

I think it's poor form to delete posts unless they contain obscenities and I am paying to be a contributor to these forums. To me, this is just another case of Madison's Progressive Voice attempting to frame the discussion to meet their agenda.

Hogzilla, I do appreciate your comment and it was taken into consideration when deciding what was and wasn't "on topic." However, the trend of comments was veering wildly toward the national stage and Obama's policies rather than the situation in Wisconsin (and Minnesota).

Fact or Fiction
Fact or Fiction

Fiction: "Paying to be a contributor to these forums" is the problem. Paid commentary sections are no different than political adverising. The capital times should be paying HOGZILLA to post here rather than HOGZILLA paying the capitial times to post here.

Hogzilla
Hogzilla

Fact or Fiction can pound sand. You've been mistaken on 90% of the positions you've made. If The Capital Times wants to make things more conducive to open discussion and they want to focus on facts, the first thing they should do is ban Fact or Fiction. This guy doesn't know WTF he is talking about and there no way he should be controlling the conversation here. I am going to hunt this loudmouth down and wreck everything he has to say. You want a war? You got it. I am going to play within the rules and run this clown into the ground. Every post he makes will be followed by one from me that outlines the shortcomings of his outlook. I am for freedom of the press, but you had better let me after him, or I think it will be clear that ya'll are biased. Bring it.

Clearwater WI
Clearwater WI

How about the Governor work on KEEPING the jobs in Wisconsin. One of Eau Claire's largest employers, Hutchinson Technologies Inc., just announced another huge workforce reduction because they are moving their assembly division to Thailand. I have yet to hear a word from Governor Walker on the devastating decision by HTI. Oh, that's right, he's too busy jet setting to the FOX studios so he can plan his next step.

Retoother
Retoother

Why don't we start with tariffs on that one...........how are you going to keep a company in the USA when they can move abroad, produce at a lower cost and ship it back here with a minimal cost. That is not a Governor issue that is a country issue.

Didn't Hutchinson move back and forth between MN and WI a few times? They had issues back in the 90's when I lived up there.

tomtom33
tomtom33

Wouldn't that be giving welfare to corporations?

Liberalsmakesense
Liberalsmakesense

Walker will go down as the best conman politician in the state, and the WORST Governor in the whole country!

Comment deleted.
Comment deleted.
Hogzilla
Hogzilla

Also, I am a Walker supporter, but I do think we could be doing a better job of creating jobs. I just called him, Fitzgerald, Miller and Kahl to let them know that I think Skyward should be getting the DPI contract in Stevens Point. I would encourage all of you to call your people and let them know that this contract needs to stay in state.

Norwood44
Norwood44

Didn't vote for Walker. But I find public union folks ripping Walker about creating or poaching jobs to be hysterical, as if they know anything about creating jobs or competition. They're so cute when they talk that way.

Liberalsmakesense
Liberalsmakesense

We know you voted for Walker. What are you talking about? You are telling us Walker knows how to create jobs? Well, we have put him in charge, and do you want to tell us what he has done Norwood?

Criticism of Walker is fully deserved.

tomtom33
tomtom33

The government does not create private sector jobs. And we can't afford to create any more public sector jobs. The government can get out of the way and at least not attack private enterprise and profit.

Fartinthewind
Fartinthewind

Nonsense tomtom. What about the whole defense industry that sprang up around the war on terror? How about the jobs that sprang up to build the interstate highway system?

Now to be fair, I would agree that the government shouldn't be in the business of creating private sector jobs.

Nav
Nav

That's funny. I remember not too long ago Scott Walker promising the voters he would create 250,000 jobs when he is in "Government". What the Government CAN do is to create a economic climate where people have more buying power which would cause businesses to grow and flourish.

So tomtom33, what has Governor Walker done to this end? The first thing he did when he came to the office was to pass his act 10 which would practically end collective bargaining. How did that put more money in the pockets of everyday consumers?? Please enlighten us.

freddiebell
freddiebell

tomtom: But public sector educators do prepare people for their private sector careers, and quite adequately, given the number of graduates who successfully have gone from e.g. the UW system into good, gainful, lasting employment. I'd call that a job well done on the public dime. Perhaps the private sector should get out of THEIR way and not attack them for generating the skills and knowledge to obtain that profit, overall in a very efficient, cost-effective manner? Or do you really think that they (in the private sector) really build it all by themselves?

freddiebell
freddiebell

Nav: And I recall (pun somewhat intended) that Walker said while campaigning in 2010 that if he didn't fulfill his 250,000 new jobs pledge, he should not be reelected as governor.

I wonder how many of his supporters and those on the fence will take his words at face value in 2014 and hold him accountable for that.

array1
array1

Man you must be po'd at walkers proposal to increase funding for mental health services. An increase of 30 million tax payer dollars much of which will go to the creation of state jobs.

tomtom33
tomtom33

freddie, I'd sure like to give private sector educators more of a crack at the job.

No one does anything without the support of society. However, that does not mean that society is solely, or even mainly, responsible for any successes gained by any individual or group.

tomtom33
tomtom33

Nav, in case you forgot Act 10 resulted in money in the pockets of all taxpayers. Where do you suppose that money that the public employees had to pony up went? It allowed for competition by health insurance providers. Most importantly it allowed localities more control over their own schools.

tomtom33
tomtom33

Fart, the defense industry "sprang" up in the late 30's.

Norwood44
Norwood44

Liberalsmakesense. Wrong. voted barret. obama. you just can't understand how a private sector person supports gay rights, gun control, but wants smarter more accountable govt at same time. Public workers don't understand competition and risk. that's why you are a public worker. you want to be coddled for life because you ahve a degree. you'd starve in the private sector. I'm really tired of those who don't achieve very much at all ripping those who do. America thrives on competition. experimentation, change. public union workerrs want to start and end work at the same time every day, and park in the same place for years and then retire. that's no way to grown and thrive. we need public workers. But when it comes to discussion of growth and economic vitality their perspective is by and large, ignorant. even if the do have a masters.

Liberalsmakesense
Liberalsmakesense

Norwood, I am trying to ascertain the roots of your anti-public employee sentiments. Being a public sector worker is neither a sin or a crime...it is a living,

I am sorry that you were not successful in being a public worker, but that's no reason to demonize those who serve the people.

Understanding risk and competition is not the sole province of business owners. All of us in our every day lives have to deal with risk. Those who got be public workers know plenty about competition as they either had to do the best in an examination, or had 30 different people competing for the job. Your perspective about public sector workers is plain wrong.

Also, when it comes to growth and economic vitality, that too is not the monopoly of a particular party. I don't know WHERE you got the idea that it is!

Norwood44
Norwood44

liberalsmakessense. I am not demonizing anyone. I am stating what I think. We need good public workers. Bu in my opinion,the unions are protectionist and do not demand the level of accountability that we see in certain sectors of the private economy. I don't include Wall Street by the way. As for as being a public worker? Not for me. I enjoy my freedom to win or lose on my own account. The risk reward model is to my liking.

AdiosScott
AdiosScott

Norwood

Your opinion of the unions protectionism and lack of enforcing accountability is not out of line, as far I am concerned, and to a degree. I see it myself and feel the same way you do. I have always defended unions, but I have also, always emphasized that we as union members need to police that undesirable trap, and do our part to clean it up in order to maintain the credibility the unions deserve. As I have said, it is reason for concern, and I also, have witnessed it getting worse, the longer the unions age and the more the distance widens between now and their conception. Too many have lost site of the real reasons unions were formed. Or they entered the workforce when times were good and they never invested the time to learn and understand what truly is expected of them, nor do they understand the misery and sacrifices endured by those who originally built the unions.

The unions, just like our current government, needs work. They are very similar as far as the problems go. As we all battle here about how the government needs to be run, unions need to be having this same battle. We all need to get our differences on the table. We need to evaluate all ideas in a rational manner, and we as a united body, need to put the best ideas in force in order to save ourselves from failure.

To simplify. I believe we need to have more interest from everyone and for more to be involved in dialogue as we all have been doing here. And most importantly, we need to fix what we already have. Not just start throwing things out. Disposable is very common in these time. But our livelihood or our government should not fall into that practice.

rodeodance
rodeodance

Obviously
@GovWalker knows NOTHING about creating jobs!

Cornelius Gotchberg
Cornelius Gotchberg

@calme;

You take a small sampling of figures you can make look good, or just not make look bad, and say "Hahaha!"? You chide the Governor the citizens of our fair state elected twice for fudging jobs figures and you just can't bring yourself to believe it could possibly happen at the federal level. Yeah; I'm the one struggling with reality.

Our economy is in the worst recovery EVAH! How many people are out of work, underemployed, or have just dropped out of the workforce entirely? Howse about you cherrypick some stats to put some lipstick on that pig.

Oweblameya did do something right...by disbanding his joke-of-a WH Jobs Council. They really didn't discuss any 'jobs' related topics except for how many more they're going to ship overseas. It was packed with job offshoring CEOs, not the least of which is Jeffy Immelt, former CEO of GE, perpetual tax avoider and Big Government teat suckler. Yep! a good old American corporation that GE; it no longer makes anything in the states...um...except for billion$ in Green Energy boondoggle taxpayer-funded subsides.

Factory installed willful blindness is a common trait of useful 'sorts' until their village locates and them and returns them to where they belong.

The Gotch

calme
calme

"Gotch", you engage in statements of conjecture all day, but until you put forth factual evidence to substantiate your position you are nothing more than a blabbering ideologue. For someone adamantly claiming the BLS jobs figures are inaccurate, you must have some substantiated, factual evidence to support your position, correct?

Go ahead, put forth anything you have that proves the jobs figures from before October 2012 wrong (recent numbers are subject to revision). The links I provided show up to four years of data. Give us the evidence you have that shows the team of economists and statisticians working at the BLS have been consistently inaccurate during that period. Again, don’t rely on dubious and ambiguous claims, but put forth facts that support your position outright. I look forward to reviewing any resources you provide.

P.S. I enjoy the effort to drag a red herring into the conversation, but let’s stay on topic here. The jobs council has nothing to do with the accuracy of BLS jobs data.

S54k
S54k

So you're recommending walker disband the wedc before ruining the State Reirement Fund, right? What's the purpose of the wedc other than to created private sector jobs? walker is governor (public sector employee) double dipping as a chairman of a half public and have private corporation which makes him a public employee trying to create public sector jobs. I thought that wasn't the role of government. If he knew what he was doing would be one thing, but where does he get off anointing himself chairman without the minimal amount of experience. We've seen the results so far (horrible) and no amount of money is going to fix it. We need new leadership for this thing to have half a chance!

skippie
skippie

"Wisconsin is mentioned over its efforts to keep Mercury Marine from moving away." Liberals now bashing Walker for trying to keep jobs in Wisconsin.

geo_
geo_

Skippie, learn a little recent history and you won't appear so ignorant. The Mercury Marine workers UNION has given back much over the last 5 years. At the same time they were playing Wisconsin, they were playing, I think it was Kansas for state give aways. Wisconsin gives them tax breaks ,low interest loans and free money. Wisconsin got less income tax revenue from the workers, from the company and it cost us money. A net deficit to Wisconsin. Mercury Marine lied all the way to the bank.

Retoother
Retoother

So no jobs is better then having the jobs here?

LMAO.......do you know how stupid that sounds?

geo_
geo_

The jobs were never in danger of leaving, judging by all the lies Mercury has told in the last few years.

Retoother
Retoother

And you know this for sure? The jobs not leaving? I doubt it.

Muffi
Muffi

Mercury Marine was playing the states of Wisconsin and Oklahoma against each other on taxes, as well as their workers in WI and OK, against each other. The WI Mercury Marine union workers had large compensation cuts extracted from them by the company.

In return, Mercury Marine closed its Oklahoma operation and moved all jobs to Wisconsin.

I think its safe to say MM will have their hands out again, come union contract negotiation time.

Or maybe they'll threaten to move operations to Mexico or China.

jimatmadison
jimatmadison

The Mercury Marine deal happened under Jim Doyle's watch. In fact, it was the sort of targeted deal that isn't necessarily bad, and, at the time, I supported it. Doyle acted as a broker between the union and management in addition to helping with fairly small subsidies. The union deal was the biggest factor in the arrangement. I am far more comfortable with working to keep jobs here and figuring out ways to create new jobs than I am with spending tax dollars to poach jobs from out of state. That eventually turns into a lose-lose.

What we know for certain that doesn't work is giving untargeted tax breaks to wealthy people or already profitable companies like governor Walker did early on. US companies are sitting on trillions of dollars in cash, and it doesn't create jobs. Wealthy individuals just send it to the Caymans or some other dead-end, non-job producing tax avoidance haven.

We would have been far, far better off investing those early tax breaks in regular Wisconsinites who would have spent the money and kept it in circulation rather than having it stop dead in the hands of the wealthy.

bear1
bear1

And let's add insult to injury by having our own state award the contract for education software provider to who else? A MN company no less when Skyward, a Stevens Point company who currently employs 200 and would have added another 400 professional IT jobs was also a bidder. I'm all for having an open bidding process normally but can't we take care of our own on this one? How about rewarding an entrepreneur in our state for taking the risk, investing the capital even if they aren't the lowest bidder as long as it's within the requirements for the job. Tough to talk job creation when we do such stupid things to ourselves!

Hogzilla
Hogzilla

I actually agree with what you are saying here. Point is kinda hurting at the moment. I would much rather spend a few extra bucks over the company in MN to get the contract in state than spend even more money on the back end through unemployment and other forms of assistance.

Not sure who made that call, but if it was the Republicans, I will be happy to place that at their feet. I did hear that they were appealing the decision, so this might be a good time to call your elected officials. I am.

hankdog
hankdog

Didn't DOA make the award to the MN company? Isn't the Sec of DOA appointed by Walker? Explain that one.

Hogzilla
Hogzilla

I am not sure on that. I called around today and asked those questions. My understanding is that DPI also played a large role in the decision. I don't think it's a done deal yet though, if you care, call your people and voice your opinion. I really think we should keep this contract in state if at all possible. It makes sense on a number of different levels.

hankdog
hankdog

hog:

I think DOA must approve every major contract with the state. That is what an earlier article said, that it was a DOA decision. Call Mike Huebsch.

Hogzilla
Hogzilla

hankdog~ Thanks for the insight. I will call Huebsch on Monday. I would encourage you to do the same.

PapaLorax
PapaLorax

There is no doubt that the shell game is terrible...The problem is - not playing that game means you lose jobs and businesses to other states.

jimatmadison
jimatmadison

Or, we could try to actually create jobs. You know, like candidate Walker promised.

Harvey
Harvey

Very interesting article. It didn't really occur to me that taking jobs from one place and putting them into another is not job creation. It is a shell game.

Liberalsmakesense
Liberalsmakesense

That's all walker knows. No real vision or strategy, Wherever crap lands

spooky tooth
spooky tooth

A shell game that takes corporations off the tax roll. Citizens are being played a fool by the Chamber of Commerce and their bought and paid for governors.

concerned_citizen
concerned_citizen

Didn't we "import" Ron "Hank Rearden" Johnson from MN?

Can we send him back?!

Mary49
Mary49

This is what happens when we elect an uneducated man as our leader.

Liberalsmakesense
Liberalsmakesense

He is not only uneducated but very arrogant! He needs to GO!

Liberalsmakesense
Liberalsmakesense

Within a very short time. Walker has made sure that he will not have ANY credibility with Wisconsin voters. People THROUGHTOUT Wisconsin are disgusted with him for having taken our state backwards, and be the butt of jokes. Shame on him.

tomtom33
tomtom33

Walker is a few credits short of his degree. Why did the Democrats nominate someone for Lt. Governor who, as far as I know, never earned any college credits? No Democrat can claim that a college education is important.

hankdog
hankdog

tt:

Define "few" please.

lute
lute

"Walker is a few credits short of his degree." Well put, tomtom33!

Is that like "a few bricks short of a full load"?

Funny - He's the Govenor. What are You?

freddiebell
freddiebell

tomtom:

"No Democrat can claim that a college education is important."

Huh? Could you clarify this? Unless you are being ironic/sarcastic, I don't see where you are going with this. Whatever the background of a single nominee for lieutenant governor, there is a bigger picture involved.

tomtom33
tomtom33

You have to read the whole comment. No part can be culled and made to stand on its own.

bpro
bpro

Walker is in far over his head, it's obvious, what a joke for the State of Wisconsin!

fjwalker
fjwalker

In common parlance, the expression zero-sum game is often used in a pejorative sense. It is especially used to point out cases where a person incorrectly assumes that an interaction between different parties can only be competitive when in fact the parties may gain more by cooperation (e.g. the fallacious assumption that business transactions always have strictly winners and losers).

LuAnne F
LuAnne F

If we had built a rail line from Milwaukee to Madison that went on to connect to Minneapolis, instead of trying to be another Floridian low tax retirement community, Wisconsin could have become part of a bigger and more attractive regional market that appealed to more businesses.

Hogzilla
Hogzilla

There already is a rail line that connects Milwaukee to Minneapolis. The plan to connect Madison to Milwaukee directly was short sighted. Had we had a plan to build a depot at the Dane County Airport and then had a spur that went up to Columbus to connect to the Empire Builder, that would have been a decent idea and would had truly served the region. The plan Doyle decided on was really, really poor, which is why people voted for Walker in some cases.

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

Airport, yes!
Doyle decision, dumb!
Walker decision, worse!

Hogzilla
Hogzilla

Actually, when I look at the map, the spur could have went to Watertown too. Eitherway, the Doyle plan was a debacle. I am not sure if Walker's decision was worse, based on the issues that states like California are now facing while trying to get their HSR built out. These are the types of projects that could either be a good investment or a horrible one that we are stuck with for long periods of time. If we ever do have an HSR discussion again, I would hope that land use planners and engineers have more input than politicians.

none of these areas are even half as populated as would be required to make rail a viable, sustainable option. Not even 1/4.

Acapitalidea
Acapitalidea

Amen, LuAnne.

tomtom33
tomtom33

And we could have spent $10 for every dollar in benefits that we received. That's how CA and IL have placed themselves in a position to compete for the honor of becoming the first State to go under.

Amen!

Nav
Nav

Governor walker really has NO clue how to create 250,000GOOD jobs he promised the voters of Wisconsin. It is on this that they will judge him.

Hogzilla
Hogzilla

I wonder how much the disparity between Milwaukee and Minneapolis has to do with those numbers. I love Milwaukee, but lets face it, as far as cities go, Minneapolis is probably a nicer place to live and work in for a myriad of reasons.

freddiebell
freddiebell

Hogzilla: And St. Paul is nicer still, culturally and economically. "Twin" Cities, y'know ...

Observer5
Observer5

On the plus side, I doubt the Mn gov is an eagle boy scout and has a criminal defense fund

tomtom33
tomtom33

The former MN Governor was a pro wrestler and a head case.

RichardSRussell
RichardSRussell

You're speaking of Jesse Ventura, also known as "ancient history".
The present governor is Mark Dayton.
It's the 21st Century.
Do try to keep up.

WI_Expat
WI_Expat

It called competition....to bad the Minnesota Liberal cant take the heat!

WI Expat
WI Expat

LOL, What heat? Minnesota leads Wisconsin in pre/post tax income per capita, lower unemployment by a full point and so far apart in job creation numbers that Wisconsin job creation may as well be considered as non-existent. Gov Dayton is really shaking in his boots. But don't worry Wisconsinians, we make good money and have happy, productive lives here in Minnesota and as Walker's policies cause you to plunge deeper into poverty we'll be there to donate some canned goods to your food shelves.

Hogzilla
Hogzilla

Wisconsinites.

human
human

It doesn't look like Minnesota is afraid to compete. Actually, the ARE competing -- and they're winning.

Walker, on the other hand, is whining.

Retoother
Retoother

What most people bashing on her fail to realize is that some of those businesses are going to move.......period. Raising taxes on them is going to hurt with this economy.

Good for the Gov to reach a hand across the line.......and Mike Smith............sorry but you do not get reelected if they majority of the people do not like you.........freaking liberals.

davea
davea

And, Walker's defense is??????????????????????????????

DaTruth
DaTruth

Only true Madison liberals would lose the real point of this story - taxes are going up in MN. Time to annex Dane County to IL.

Lynne4300
Lynne4300

Consider it an honor.....Michigan is not doing so great.

Liberalsmakesense
Liberalsmakesense

Of course not. Its Governor is also Republican.

Retoother
Retoother

MI was doing worse under Granholm or what ever her name was.

Lynne4300
Lynne4300

Sorry....Minnesota...not doing so great. Michigan and Right to Work, we need to bring it to Wisconsin.

BigWheel
BigWheel

Taxes are going up in MN, and because of their strong economy, they can afford to pay them. I guess if you want low taxes and lower wages, you would be happy.

Retoother
Retoother

Says who? Do you live there?

WI Expat
WI Expat

I do. I was born and raised and lived in WI for 30 years, moved to MN in 1991 for a 20% wage increase and though it's required further education and change of career over the years, I earn 5-6 times my 1991 WI wages. I frequently visit family and spend time in many areas of WI as I have for years and I'm certain it would have been difficult to impossible to find this degree of opportunity anywhere there. Just look at the morning I-94 westbound rush hour traffic from the St Croix to Mpls, look at the park and ride lots and buses TO MN and ask yourself why. Those people aren't going shopping at the MOA, they're going to higher paying jobs in MN. Believe or dispute whatever facts you want but from someone who's split his 50+ year life almost equally between these two states, with the exception of professional football, the standard of living is noticeably better here.

Retoother
Retoother

Considering that there is 3.5 million people that live in MN/St Paul I would think that there are plenty of jobs there. I also earn 5-6 times my 1991 wages and still live in WIS. I dealt with the traffic traveling to Mpls/St Paul for many years....just as bad in the Milw area also..........that I also over see this area as well.

Considering that WIS does not have many big cities on that side of the state compared to Mpls/St Paul........you are correct on that but also twisted a bit as WI does not have a city that big in that area to compare to.

@ expat - People commuting Into the city doesn't prove anything. People commute into every city for work. They don't want to live in st Paul, but they work there. Big deal.

Retoother
Retoother

I will add this also.........if their economy is so strong why the need for a tax increase? I also remember the whole MN govt shut down for how long again?

Yup it is sooooooo much better on the other side. NOT!

Harvey
Harvey

Maybe they have a tax increase because they can afford to pay more for a better quality of life. Ever drive through rural Alabama? Very low taxes but their quality of life is just above the heard of dogs they have sleeping in their yard.

Harvey
Harvey

So how does having a business move from Minnesota to Wisconsin help the people in Wisconsin if most of the people from MInnesota move as well? Kind of like the 700 jobs created by the open pit mine. If most of them are filled by out of state people the impact will be minimal.

Harvey
Harvey

The FACTS outlined in this article must be very confusing for some.

Retoother
Retoother

Simple economics.........if MN is doing well they would not need a tax increase as more people working would equal more tax revenue.......sounds like the MN governor took a page right out of the Chosen ones book...........

tomtom33
tomtom33

"Kind of like the 700 jobs created by the open pit mine. If most of them are filled by out of state people the impact will be minimal."

No matter where the employees come from, they will be paying WI income and sales taxes. And they will be buying/renting homes, food and consumer goods. That is hardly a minimal impact.

Rosalie
Rosalie

Scott Fitzgerald would like that - that is where he is from.

fohledu
fohledu

For those of you that love to bash Walker, just remember, you live in Wisconsin, and his job is to bring jobs to Wisconsin. I could care less what state he takes them from. If the jobs are here, then we have people working, and hopefully paying less taxes because of it. If people move here, then there must be a better reason to be here than somewhere else. Keep up the good work Scott.

davea
davea

Maybe you haven't noticed, IT'S NOT WORKING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No Gov or Pres canever create jobs, nor should they. They can set up our policies and laws to make them be condusive for it, but that's it. tax breaks, TIF $$, loan $, and reduced red-tape and regulations. that's about it. Other than that we must wait for the overall economy to improve and it takes time for businesses to move, expand, and get started. At this point we are Still suffering the effects of the overall economy slump and the complete lack of momentum from the Doyle years. It's like a car stopped at a light and when it turns green the car in the other lane that is still moving and times it goes roaring past. You can't just hit the gas and go 65 in 2 seconds.

Liberalsmakesense
Liberalsmakesense

His job is to CREATE jobs, which is something he promised the voters back in 2010. That he is trying to get jobs to come to Wisconsin is an acknowledgement of his inability to create jobs in HIS state.

Walker has no clue how to fix the real problems but he is very good at applying band aid.

Comment deleted.
calme
calme

Hahaha! You aren't very well versed in this stuff and aren't one for research, are you?

The numbers in the chart are the figures from the BLS. Raw figures... no manipulation... no twisting; despite your tendency to immediately delve into implied claims of conspiracy.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/empsit.pdf

I hate to break it to you, but your reality is not actuality.

AdiosScott
AdiosScott

Let's be honest. His job is to keep the fat cats FAT. And you could care less what working class family he takes it from.

spooky tooth
spooky tooth

The Chamber of Commerce figured out a long time ago they could use governors to reduce or end their state taxes with poaching. Along with bad international trade deals, this ranks second to creating most harm to the USA.

Mike_Smith
Mike_Smith

That a way Scooter, not only tick off over half of the people of Wisconsin, tick those off in the neighboring states as well. "Wisconsin, the new Mississippi" In a race to the bottom, Wisconsin is in eighth place!

Lionhear
Lionhear

Over half the people of Wisconsin? Hahaha, good one, Mike!!

uspotme
uspotme

Does anybody find it ironic that the job "poaching" states are ran by Republican governors. Typical business model of true capitalism. If you can't increase business through your own effort and work, buy it. Freaking vultures.

Welcome to the discussion.

Keep it clean. Exchange ideas and opinions on posted articles. Don't promote products or services, impersonate other site users, register multiple accounts, threaten or harass others, post vulgar, abusive, obscene or sexually oriented language. Don't post content that defames or degrades anyone. Don't repost copyrighted material; link to it. In other words, stick to the topic and play nice. Report abuses by clicking the button. Users who break the rules will be banned from commenting. We no longer issue warnings. Use the 'Report' link on each comment to let us know of abusive posts.