In the Spirit: Two views on separating church and state

2013-10-06T07:30:00Z In the Spirit: Two views on separating church and stateDOUG ERICKSON | Wisconsin State Journal | | 608-252-6149

On issues of church and state, Americans appear conflicted.

In polls, a strong and consistent majority say the U.S. Constitution requires a separation between the two. Yet when presented with specific scenarios, survey respondents often side with religion. They want religious symbols in public buildings and prayers at public school events.

Two law professors took up the issue at a recent forum at UW Law School sponsored by the Federalist Society, a student group of conservatives and libertarians. Specifically, the forum tackled the meaning of the Establishment Clause. That’s the initial 10 words of the First Amendment: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.”

Although the event was billed as a debate, the participants, UW-Madison law professor Ann Althouse and University of South Dakota law professor Patrick Garry, were collegial and agreed on the big stuff. They both advocate limited government, and neither wants government and religion directly connected.

They differed, however, on how they think the courts are doing in refereeing disputes involving church and state.

Garry offered the more negative critique, arguing there’s been an “over-application” by courts of the Establishment Clause, which has led to stripping the public sphere of most things religious. The problem dates back to the 1800s, he said, when courts became overly influenced by Thomas Jefferson’s reference in a letter that the Establishment Clause “builds a wall of separation between church and state.” Garry does not think the metaphor is apt.

The Establishment Clause’s great aim was to prevent a state religion, Garry said. Instead, the clause “is being used to confront any momentary interaction between government and religion,” and courts have become bogged down in minutia over such things as public Christmas tree displays, he said.

Does the offering of a prayer at a public school graduation ceremony really constitute government coercion, Garry asked, or are we just talking about the kind of mild, social discomfort people occasionally should be able to endure when they encounter views other than their own?

“If (religion) drifts into the public arena because of the activities of private individuals, I don’t think governments need to say, ‘Wait a minute. That’s crossing the line. We need to keep it separate,’” he said.

He thinks the courts need to come up with a clearer, more consistent interpretation of the Establishment Clause, if only to reduce all of the First Amendment cases clogging the system.

Althouse agreed that court doctrine involving the Establishment Clause has been “messy and confusing” over time, but she finds a certain comfort in that, she said. Essentially, the court system has done a pretty good job with a very difficult task by rejecting extreme positions and seeking a pragmatic middle ground case by case, even if that means less overall clarity, she said. Proof that the Establishment Clause is working can be seen in the kinds of disputes, she said.

“We’re fighting over things like whether a city can display a creche in a commercial district or whether there can be a voluntary prayer at a football game,” she said. “We’re not fighting over major controversies, we’re not coercing people, we’re not having an established religion. We’re fighting around the edges, and we’re doing it with a court that’s trying to be moderate so that some little efforts at including God, like saying ‘under God’ in the Pledge of Allegiance, are permitted.”

She concluded her remarks by forcefully arguing against such things as prayers at public school graduations.

“Sing ‘The Star-Spangled Banner’ or do something else to make it a grand occasion,” she said. “Don’t appropriate religion for that purpose. Keep religion separate and special and have the sphere of government be religion-free so that everyone feels equally included. I think that is the American tradition.”

You can reach reporter Doug Erickson at or 608-252-6149.

Copyright 2015 All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

(4) Comments

  1. MrNatural
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    MrNatural - October 06, 2013 10:18 pm
    It's a sad state of affairs when Apple Annie is the most liberal in the room.
  2. pikerover
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    pikerover - October 06, 2013 2:45 pm
    Rebecca it was in '56 I believe. It was to counter the "godless" Commies.
  3. Rebecca Karoff
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    Rebecca Karoff - October 06, 2013 12:46 pm
    As for the pledge of allegiance, when I recite it, I simply leave out the words "under God" and pledge my allegiance to one nation indivisible. I have no allegiance to any nation under any god. The folks who shoehorned the phrase "under God" into the pledge in the 1950s seemed to be looking for a way to divide our one nation indivisible, so I ignore it and say "one nation indivisible."
  4. Good and Godless
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    Good and Godless - October 06, 2013 11:24 am
    "Freedom of religion" is a misnomer and outdated ideal manipulated to create unfounded discord and reward tax exempt entities while impeding true progress.

    These outdated ideals need to be removed from any protections and be allowed to fall from the full scrutiny of science and intellect.

    In a world readily using cell phones it is well past time to be adhering to myths and superstitions.

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